Talk:Abrahamic religion - Definition and Overview

Other Abrahamic religions

I trimmed this because it seemed a bit out of place in the header section:

At the same time, Sikhism can also be considered to part of the Dharmic faiths, as it, like Hinduism and Buddhism accepts karma and reincarnation.

Perhaps there should be a section in this article giving an overview of all the other religions that claim or can be claimed to descend from Judaism, Christianity, or Islam (Sikhism, Bahai, Mormonism, Kardecism, ...). The parag above then would be reinstated there.
Jorge Stolfi 05:26, 30 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Arabs vs Muslims

I don't see the relavance of this

Although Mohammed was an Arab, many Arabs are Christian, and most Muslims are not Arabs.

Why this term?

Well, I think the bigger issue is, "Why have people started talking about 'Abrahamic Religions?'" The article is pretty good so far, but doesn't provide any context for when, how and why this concept developed. I am no expert in this, but my sense is people started using the term to promote something more inclusive than "Judeo-Christian tradition" -- more inclusive meaning, include Muslims -- at least that's what an article in Time magazine suggested (about a year ago, I think).

That's exactly right. It's an invented term specifically to reinforce what they have in common. But it was used as late as the Middle Ages by thoughtful people with the same intent.

As someone from an Muslim bakground I also support using this term, as it insists on what these traditions have in common instead on their difference as many people try to do in these troubled times. Note that the term "Judeo-Christian tradition" is also a coined term which has been invented in the XIX century --Khalid hassani 00:31, 31 Jan 2005 (UTC)

But why call it "Abrahamic?" This article says it is because Jews, Christians, and Muslims all worship the God of Abraham, which makes sense. But to the best of my recollection, the Time magazine article (and it was referring either to a recent book or PBS special) said that it was because Abraham was the father of both Isaac (from whom Jews are descended) and Ishmael (from whom Arabs are descended).

Either the genetic or ontologic explanation leads back to Abraham, since he was the first to get the instructions from God as to what to do to found the nation of Israel.

Maybe this is just too tangential -- I won't argue. But it seems to me that this gets to the issue of why we need to be more inclusive, and who we want to include. What I mean is, I think the very idea of Abrahamic religion -- a term I doubt anyone (meaning, all the so-called practicioners of Abrahamic religions) used more than twenty or thirty years ago -- is a political response to recent political conflicts.

Yes, it's use is motivated by that, and yes, that should be mentioned in the article, more or less exactly as you say it.

Now, since 9/11 the enemy of "the West" has been "radical Islam" -- with political and civic leaders going to great pains to make clear that they do not mean all Muslims.

These leaders don't speak for *me*. I have no problem with radical Islam. I have more of a problem with fascists using 9/11 as pretext, and gangsters using religious imagery to get what they want - which is something that all "leaders" in all three of these so-called faiths are guilty of.

But prior to 9/11 I think that the villians in most Hollywood moviews were identifiably Arab, not Muslim -- in other words, the enemy was ethnic, not religious; similarly the problems in Israle/Palestine are, or at least have been, most often described as a Jewish-Arab conflict. So I think when people first started using the term "Abrahamic religion," they were trying to include "Arabs," not "Muslims." I am suggesting that the way people in the West have talked about their conclicts with certain people outside of Europe has changed in the past few years, and consequently the way people use the term "Abrahamic religions" has changed too. I may be wrong about the dates -- if anyone can provide a citation using the term "Abrahamic religion" prior to 1900, or 1948 -- or even 1967 -- I would be surprised but grateful for the lesson.

I'm pretty sure it's a very very old but obscure term used mostly to distinguish from the vedic religions, and often in the context where someone British was trying to get Muslims on their side against Hindus.

I may also be wrong that people use the term differently after 9/11. At the very least, I think it would be good if the article said more about when and why people first started using this term (I googled around a bit -- the earliest examples I could find of "Abrahamic" were 2001! Prior to that, even when people wanted to refer to Judaism, Christianity, and Islam, they seem to have used "monotheistic." Why the change?) Slrubenstein

For exactly the reasons you state. I think desert monotheism is really the best term actually. It talks about where the faiths originated, not the mythical and maybe fictional figure on whom it is based. One might for instance think all this was inspired by specific mushrooms that grow only in the Sinai.

The term may have been created by political motivations, but it seems useful on its own. To the extent that one can trace a "genetic tree" of religions, "Abrahamic religion" would mean simply "a religion that descends from that of ancient Hebrews". "Monotheism" is more generic and ambiguous (isn't Taoism "monotheistic" in some sense?) "Desert monotheism" is still not specific enough (which desert?).
Granted that the genetic tree of religions is nowere as easy to determine as that of amoebas...
Jorge Stolfi 05:26, 30 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Lawgiver

Really, we need an article on lawgiver that talks about the various attributes of divinity or prophecy or whatever that they are assigned by people who come later.

"Islam ... also considers the wisest lawgivers of other nations (Confucius, Hiawatha) to be prophets as long as they claimed no divinity on their own behalf."

I am surprised to read this. Does anybody have a source for this?

I am not aware of this at least not in orthodox Islam, that said Islam recognize all jews prophets as beeing authentic prophets, the official name in Islam is nabi the same as in Judaism.khalid

Abraham's eight sons

Simple "edit"-note: acc. to the text, Abraham has eight sons, only two are mentioned..are they surplus? Or have you just omitted a sentence?

Abraham?!

The problem with this entry is there is no real discussion of what makes a religion "Abrahamic" other than its genealogy -- if the relationship between these religions is simply familial, why call them "Abrahamic"? And, of course, it is not simply familial, or the various Christian heresies would be considered "Abrahamic" while more distant cousins of Christianity or Judaism or Islam like Rastafarianism, Nation of Islam, or Jews for Jesus might not. It seems to me what these religions have in common is a sense of the centrality of the story of Abraham -- and particularly the Akedah -- to religious belief. The story certainly emphasizes critical themes that are repeated in the Abrahamic religions -- the test of faith, sacrifice, martyrdom, even resurrection and revelation in some readings. Not sure how to put that in the entry though.... --csloat 10:20, 9 Jul 2004 (UTC)

These religions share in fact a lot of traditions, beliefs, legends, they interpret their own way in a kind of localisation. You might think of them as a kind of localised languages of the same original language, they are related to judaism the same way French, Spanish, or Italian are related to Latin. They also share the same strong and I must say debilating sens of "Sin" (Christianity), "Haram" (Islam) don't know the term in Judaîsm. Other central common notions if you don't count god, are Paradise, and the Devil', Islam has alas the originality of martyrdom and Jihad, although crusaders have had their fair share of that too !!

csloat: One suggestion is that you do not use the term "heresy" or "heresies", as we do not endorse nor condemn any particular religion, okay? :) - Gilgamesh 19:08, 29 Nov 2004 (UTC)

The term "heresies" was not meant as my judgement on these views but rather as a description of them as deviations from mainstream Christianity -- specific doctrinal deviations that are based on (and sometimes parody) the original -- I have in mind such groups as Anabaptists, Freethinkers, Satanists -- none of these groups follow Christianity (and they even explicitly reject it) but they are nonetheless entirely based on opposition to Christianity; if Christianity did not exist there could be no Church of Satan for example. Yet even though these are more directly related to a major Abrahamic religion than say Rastafarianism, one would be foolish to call them "Abrahamic" because the story of Abraham does not feature prominently in any of them. I still think this point needs to be made more adequately in the article.... --csloat 19:25, 30 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Invitation for Hebrew linguistics project participation

Wikipedia:WikiProject Judaism is trying to decide all Hebrew linguistics issues for Wikipedia by themselves. But Hebrew is not purely the realm of Judaism; it is also the realm of Samaritans, Christians and Abrahamic religion as a whole, and also secular Canaanite languages studies. I'm trying to challenge mono-cultural mono-sectarian dominance over a linguistic field that we all should be sharing together. I invite you to participate in trying to pluralize Hebrew language conventions for Wikipedia. In particular, not only is Tiberian Hebrew transliteration challenged, but also Standard Hebrew transliteration, as some people want to use only Israeli Hebrew colloquial transliteration or Ashkenazi Hebrew liturgical transliteration. I think these are perfectly valid and worthy of participation, but not at the total expense of every other Hebrew linguistics study concern. Please support a multi-religious multi-cultural scientific NPOV mandate for studying Hebrew linguistics on Wikipedia. - Gilgamesh 02:54, 18 July 2004 (UTC)

In case anyone was wondering, I dropped this dispute a long long time ago. It was a challenge against , but we made up. :) We're good colleagues now and we cooperate extensively. - Gilgamesh 19:14, 29 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Merging Sections

I believe "The Supreme Diety" section of this article should be merged with the section about each religion's scriptures.--Josiah 15:41, 24 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Book of Enoch

These people did not however leave any recorded moral code behind.

The Ethiopian Orthodox Church considers the Book of Enoch inspired. Is it a "moral code"?

Catholic Hell

Hi. The section of the article about the Catholic notion of the nature of Hell is somewhat mistaken. The idea that damnation to Hell is either eternal or to last until the Second Coming is neither dominant in modern Catholic Theology nor has it been the official mainstream theory in Catholic history. Religious art, among other sources, from as late as the 17th century clearly depict Hell as a form of purgatory (hence there is no "purgatory" between Heaven and Hell in Catholicism), a place where sinful souls go for a period of time, the duration of which depends on the nature of the sins committed and the willingness to sincerely repent. It is possible to stay in Hell forever, if the soul is uncapable of sincere repentance. In most cases, however, it is completely possible, in Catholic tradition, for a soul to leave Hell and ascend to Heaven, and that is not pending the Second Coming. Furthermore, it has always been stated in Catholic dogmatic that the type of suffering to which the soul is to be submitted in Hell shall vary in accordance with the sins committed and the profile of the sinner. Thus, the suffering may be physical or psychological, depending on those factors. And if the pain is to be physical, it doesn't necessarily involve "Fire and Brimstone", but rather it varies in accordance with those factors, again. That is what Dante's Devine Comedy reflects: different punishments for different sinners. That section of the article needs some work. Regards, Redux 19:20, 12 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Name Change

I think this ought to be called Abrahamic Religions instead of it's current title, as it refers to multiple religous POVs.--Josiah 05:37, Dec 17, 2004 (UTC)

Mormonism

<<N1LQJ@COX.NET>> I am frusterated with the descrimination on this page. Mormon's absolutely have a valid claim time their lineage, and our members exceed the World Jewish Population. Email me back. I am confussed as to how 700 years of time between the two religions can cause the LDS to be considered a minor Protestant faith. We are of a hebrew history, not a Catholic one, and as such, we are not gentiles by Chrildren of Israel. I am tired of gentiles attacking what is a crearly a Hebrew faith, and not a Catholic/Protestant one. Email me, as I am tired of going back an forth on this. Too my knowledge, the only four Abrahamic religions with a claim to lineage are

Islam Abraham/Ishmael/Muhammad

Jewish Abraham/Issac/Jacob(Israel)/Tribe of Judah (Judahism)

Mormon Abraham/Issac/Jacob(Israel)/House of Joseph (Mormonism)

Christian (The Gentiles) Jesus inherits thrown of David.

My understanding is this is the primary and essential requirments to be considered an Abrhamic Religion.

Mormons apparently had been removed from the page, and were re-added to the page on 13-Jan-05. More emphysis was placed on the fact that Mormons don't originate from The Catholic church or any church from that point on but 700 years earlier as they left the Northern Kingdom fearing an iminate invasion by the Babylonians.

Mormon(Latter-Day Saints) were added, and teh page upgraded to reflect 4 major Arabramamic religions on 9 Jan 2005 around 0500(UTC) Some text needs to be rewritten here. --VChapman 16:20, 13 Jan 2005 (UTC)

There are other religions that recognize, to a greater or lesser degree, the prophets of the Bible, including the Mormon faith, the various Voodoo faiths (a syncretic blend of Christianity and African pagan religions), and Unitarian-Universalism. These religions may add or subtract other prophets, and in some ways have beliefs and creeds that differ greatly from Judaism, Christianity and Islam. Accordingly, these faiths are generally not classified as Abrahamic religions.

Don't know about Voodoo, but Mormons and Unitarians most certainly consider themselves Abrahmamic.

The prophet, saint, pre-Abraham complexity is now covered properly I hope. I think we need an article on lawgiver, which is a nice neutral term for all such founding figures without making any claims specific to any religion. Clearly Moses and Confucius are both lawgivers, as are founding figures of Sparta, Athens, etc.

Are Donmeh too minor to be mentioned?

I feel that the article is unbalanced in regard to Mormonism, with descriptions of it's specific practices taking up too much of the article, and being longer than such descriptions of habits of Christianity and Islam combined. It is not good, especially considering that even minor branches of Christianity (like Easter Orthodoxy) and Islam (Shiism) are much larger than Mormonism. Links to appropriate pages describing specifics should be used instead. --PeterisP 12:53, 13 Jan 2005 (UTC)

The article is far too unbalanced as is, giving what is essentially a form of Christianity with a following of 20 million people or so its own heading, and huge prominence. As well, it claims that Mormonism is monotheistic, when, in fact, it sees the Abrahamic God as one of several gods (Jesus being another). I'm going to remove this stuff again, and ask that the anonymous inserter keep in mind that edits should be accurate, NPOV, and not give undue prominence to a fairly small modern form of Christianity. Jayjg | (Talk)</sup> 17:48, 13 Jan 2005 (UTC)

I disagree with VChapman's comments above. Most within the faith are adamant about placing the faith squarely within Christianity, not as a separate branch or as a branch of Judaism. Actually, Mormonism is a form of Christian Restorationism, in the same genus as the Church of Christ and the same family as the Millerites. Whether you lump Restorationism together with Protestantism is a matter of debate, but clearly both of them are branches of Christianity. No need for a separate heading. COGDEN 00:48, Jan 14, 2005 (UTC)

I think that Momonism's claim to the Abrahamic lineage is very different than the standard Christianity. And although Mormons (meaning Latter-day Saints and the members of other church's from the Latter Day Saint movement) are clear in that they are Christian in the sense of believer's that it is only through Christ that we can return to full fellowship with God; they are also equaly adament that they are not a protest of Catholicism. Rodney Stark (and other sociologists) consider that the similarities between Mormonism and Judaism are as significant as those between Mormonism and Christianity. We should have some more discussion on this. Perhaps the material was too long and overpowered the Article (didn't see it when it popoed up before the 13th), but there are enough differences, such as the Godhead vs Trinity, and the importance of ordinances, etc. to justify some discussion. Trödel

Well, of course Mormonism isn't a protest of Catholicism, it's a Christian sect that grew out of previous movements, with a fair bit of new stuff added in by Joseph Smith and his successors; see comment above by COGDEN. And I think the differences regarding beliefs about God are already mentioned, aren't they? Jayjg | (Talk) 15:16, 21 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Because Mormonism is associated with Restorationism and makes a claim on Abrahamic lineage both by 1) claiming that the teachings of the Book of Mormon are from members of the Tribe of Joseph who left Jerusalem 600 years before the time of Chist, and 2) claiming that the Church has members who are either decendants of Joseph or are adopted into his house by accepting the gospel. Furthermore, the Church teaches that it is instramental in the gathering of isreal. These teachings deserve some treatment here. (As you correctly point out there are articles that clarify the beliefs about God). Trödel 15:28, 21 Jan 2005 (UTC)

And you don't think there is enough in there already? How much more do you think needs to be added? I'm hoping the answer is on the order of two or three sentences. Jayjg | (Talk) 19:59, 21 Jan 2005 (UTC)

For me it isn't a question of length but one of structure - placing Mormonism under the heading Christianity implies that both have claim on being an Abrahamic religion for similar reasons, when in fact the reasons are much different as Latter-day Saints believe that they are actually members of a tribe of Isreal and under the covenant that God made with Abraham. I agree that the article is getting long - maybe a different structure for all claimants would be helpful. Trödel 16:37, 22 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Well, I think that Mormonism should go under Christianity, but I have no objection to subsections listing the differing views of different Christian sub-groups. Jayjg | (Talk) 01:39, 23 Jan 2005 (UTC)

What about the Samaritans?

Samaritans have been left off the list. Why? According to the wikipedia's article there are 650 practicing Samaritans who trace their faith back to Abraham. They say they are the descendants of the Israelis who weren't enslaved in Babylon. So, their doctinal difference with Judaism date back 3,000 years. -- Geo Swan 03:17, 13 Jan 2005 (UTC)

650 people? You don't think these 650 people are being given enough prominence? Jayjg | (Talk)</sup> 17:53, 13 Jan 2005 (UTC)

The Supreme Deity

The introductory paragraph to this section is inaccurate in all its parts.

• Many Christians, Muslims, and Jews do not agree that their conceptions of God are sufficiently alike to validly state that they all worship the same God. This might even be the majority opinion.
• Muslims and Jews do not "visualize" God at all.
• Christians do not believe that "the Jewish God is only one aspect" of the Holy Trinity. The Persons of the Trinity are not "aspects", and the name "God" -- meaning one and the same God, not three individual Gods -- applies to all three equally. Csernica 09:20, 22 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Your points are valid. Also, statements about "Jews", "Muslims", and "Christians" tend to be weasel words; it's better to quote official religious positions, as stated in authoritative religious works, or official positions of various movements. Jayjg | (Talk) 01:38, 23 Jan 2005 (UTC)