Given the serious presentation of the movie Amadeus and that many people think that it's such a great movie and accept its portrayals of Salieri, I think that it's important to sort out the truth from the slanderous dramatic license in the public perception of Salieri. Hopefully I have helped in this regard while maintaining the article NPOV.

Nevertheless, I am compelled in this effort by a POV: I enjoy Salieri's music more than Mozart's. Salieri's music has none of the saccharine sweetness of Mozart, instead it has a strength and forthrightfulness that points forward to Beethoven. I hope that Salieri becomes fully exonerated in public perception so that the public may come to enjoy his music. - Del arte

I have nothing against Naxos or Salieri (just in case :). I think an enclyclopedia does not need to quote a label. (User:Pfortuny???)

Thanks for clarifying the paragraph. However, I do think it's important to show that Salieri's music is worth recording and that it has been recorded. To that end, I plan to make a Salieri discography page and put it on a Geocities website, then link to it from here in an External Links section.

You might as well include a "Links" section at the bottom like

Salieri's discography at Naxos (and the corresponding link), Deutsche Gramophonn, etc...

Or similar. (Just an idea). Pfortuny 17:13, 24 Feb 2004 (UTC)

The Mozart/Salieri rivarly/fiction should definately not be what defines Salieri. Precious little is said about him that isn't referring indirectly to Mozart.

I agree. Unfortunately, Salieri's reputation is bad in pop culture (e.g., the episode of Family Guy when Stewie is teething, he exclaims to an incompetent piano student, "E-flat, Salieri!"). Not much you can do to change pop culture, but there's a lot you can do to improve this article. Del arte 19:46, 4 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Mozart the Plagiarist Claim

This sentence was recently added to the last paragraph:

Some are even daring to suggest Mozart was the plagiarist.[1] (http://rense.com/general45/mozrt.htm)

This is a tantalizing claim. However, the external reference given, a very long webpage, has only one paragraph mentioning Salieri, but nothing about Mozart plagiarizing Salieri. Perhaps the sentence above needs to clarify from whom Mozart is accused of plagiarizing: "Michael Haydn (younger brother of Franz Josef Haydn), K.F. Abel, Johann Neubauer, Joseph Myslivecek, Joseph Schuster, François Devienne, Henri Casadesus, Ernst Eberlin, Franz Novotny, F.X. Süssmayr (his pupil), and, most significantly, his father, Leopold Mozart." Del arte 18:54, 23 Jul 2004 (UTC)

This page needs serious fixing

I think there is much in this article that is misleading and perhaps outright wrong, in particular the section on "Allegations by Mozart". For example, I've yet to find any evidence that Mozart accused Salieri of poisoning him. In fact, a Google search turned up articles [2] (http://tarlton.law.utexas.edu/lpop/etext/lsf/borowitz27salieri.htm) that suggest the rumors of Salieri poisoning Mozart only happened after Mozart's death. Not to mention that it is also indicated that the rumors and maligning of Salieri began very soon after Mozart died, not in the "following decades" like the current section reads.

A BBC article [3] (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/717970.stm) credits Callisto Bassi with originating the rumor that Salieri killed Mozart.

As to whether this is true (and whether Salieri confessed, and if so, if it was valid), it seems to be still quite a controversy, so to pick one side, as this Wikipedia article does, is quite POV.

There is also another POV issue, since there seems to be quite a bit evidence that Salieri worked actively as Mozart's rival, using his influence in court.

For these reasons, I'm going to put up an disputed tag and list it as needing attention.

For those interested in this, some modifications to Mozart would seem necessary. --Chan-Ho Suh 02:17, Jan 3, 2005 (UTC)

There is a Beethoven conversation book that seems to indicate that Beethoven heard the rumor, knew it to be false, but was saddened by it nonetheless. This is in the Thayer biography of Salieri, if I remember correctly. Del arte 20:27, 3 Jan 2005 (UTC)

I admit I've done little research on this, but I don't think the conversation book (or anything else) gives an explicit piece of evidence that says Beethoven didn't believe Salieri poisoned Mozart. Rather, based on facts like Beethoven and Salieri remaining friends, many historians have concluded that Beethoven must not have believed the rumors.

As for that Thayer book, I grow more concerned about it. First, the book was written in the 19th century. Not to say old books are generally unreliable, but I believe that with Mozart and Salieri in particular, there's been much more research done since then.

Either the book is inaccurate in some spots or your recollection of it is incorrect. For example, you state that the opera in 1898 "started a tradition of dramatic license crossing into slander" but Pushkin wrote about this in Mozart and Salieri in 1830. In fact, I believe the opera was based on Pushkin's work.

If you still have the book, I ask that you take a closer look at it and determine if your recollections are correct. We may also need to check if Thayer's book is regarded highly by modern scholars. The key thing I am interested in is whether Mozart accused Salieri of trying to murder him. What evidence does Thayer give for this? I just found this paper [4] (http://darkwing.uoregon.edu/~khensche/stories/mozart.html) which says they were normal rivals but the rivalry was not anymore serious than usual. It cites Thayer as a source. Presumably with alleged accusations of murder, this would be an inconsistent statement.

--Chan-Ho Suh 22:47, Jan 3, 2005 (UTC)

I edited this article last year after I returned the Thayer book to the library. It's my impression (a POV, if you will) that Thayer is a respected biographer of Beethoven. The New Grove quotes Henry Krehbiel calling Thayer's Beethoven book "the greatest and its history the most extraordinary." Thayer also contributed significantly to articles on Beethoven and Salieri in an older Grove. Del arte 19:43, 4 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I realize Thayer was a respectable historian, but whether his particular work under discussion is still considered good is another matter. Also, I must keep on this one point of whether Mozart accused Salieri because I haven't found any evidence of any kind that this is so. So if Thayer is the only one that says this, this is highly suspect. I'd also like to know whether he explictly says there's a hearsay account of this or whether it's in a historical document.

I'm kind of surprised that you don't remember what reason he gives for his belief that Mozart accused Salieri. That's a key point. I'd like to hear if perhaps you confused the accusations after Mozart's death with stuff Mozart said. There seems to be miscommunication here; you've not yet mentioned or answered my queries regarding your reasons for the "Mozart accusing Salieri" belief of yours. Did Thayer explictly say this (alleged) fact in his book? --Chan-Ho 20:48, Feb 4, 2005 (UTC)

I recently had occassion to listen to Salieri's Piano Concerto in C Major, which I believe was written in 1773. It was startling to hear how similar it was to Beethoven's music, far more so than anything by Haydn. And one passage also reminded me of Liszt as well. That is quite remarkable given that Beethoven was 3 years old when the piece was composed (and Liszt would not be born for another 28 years). I am not a musicologist but I wonder if anyone has ever considered that Beethoven's music could be considered as a student's expansion and further development of his teacher Salieri's ideas? Certainly Salieri was a far greater influence on the development of classical music than Mozart.

I too have noticed a similarity in Salieri's music to that of Beethoven, with the overture to Cesare in Farmacusa being perhaps the best example. Del arte 19:43, 4 Feb 2005 (UTC)