Talk:Arab-Israeli conflict - Definition

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Headers

I've gone through the headers and have neutralized them somewhat. Zain, I'm not certain how your research fits into the Arab-Israeli conflict article, but only material already published in a reputable publication is allowed in Wikipedia anyway. Slim 22:14, Dec 25, 2004 (UTC)

Zain, you just deleted some material, which I've restored. If you feel something should be deleted, could you please say why on the Talk page, rather than just deleting it without comment? Many thanks, Slim 22:21, Dec 25, 2004 (UTC)

Yeah I thought may be it was clear from edit now let me explain.

This claim is about 'NEAR East' only. not about all jewish-muslim areas. Just only to 'NEAR East'.

Zain 22:23, 25 Dec 2004 (UTC)

You removed the 'NEAR East' by saying see in talk. There is nothing in talk, about 'NEAR East'. Can I ask why?

Zain 22:32, 25 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Zain, you can't decide single-handedly what the section is about. Also, many Wikipedia readers won't know what you mean by the "near east" as it's not a term used much by non-academic English speakers anymore. Please discuss changes on Talk before making them, because the English in these articles has to be free of errors, so far as is possible, quite apart from the issue of POV or NPOV. I feel you should wait until Ed Poor arrives back to edit, as you seem to have made an arrangement with him regarding some mediation either for this article or State Terrorism, so perhaps his input would be helpful before you make any more changes. Many thanks, Slim 22:35, Dec 25, 2004 (UTC)

See I have right to put claim they have right to put response. I put 'Near East' earlier too but I don't know how it got removed. the claim is only about those countries where jewish-muslim relations were always good prior to creation. that's the core of the claim. And 'NEAR East' is technically more 'Encylopedic' then middle east. Middle east is very confusing that which countries to count and which not to count. See american own website http://www.state.gov/p/nea/. To avoid confusion Can I use 'ottoman empire'?

Will it be f9 If I use 'ottoman empire areas'?

Zain 22:45, 25 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I have put Near East back in for you as you seem so keen on it, but more Wikipedia readers will understand Middle East than will understand Near East, in my view. Slim 22:58, Dec 25, 2004 (UTC)

Ok I put middle east. Can I remove the content about spain? because it doesn't come under middle east. To avoid confusion of areas can i use 'ottoman empire'. Or use 'formal jewish friendly countries'?

Can I put some thing like Relations effected in previous Jewish friendly countries, or too remove jewish word (if it is offensive).

Relations effected in previously friendly communities. Then in claim I can mention those countries like. Palestine itself , Iran , Iraq, UAE? can I do that. This way heading will be NPOV. Area will be less confusing because claim will have list of countries. Time will have less confusing, because previous means kind of adjecent, not very far past so can I use the heading.

Relations effected in previously friendly communities

And spain removal?

Zain 23:32, 25 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Zain, the header said: "Jewish-Muslim relations affected by creation of Israel." It didn't say where. You wanted to specify "relations in Near East." I objected. You insisted. I conceded, pointing out that most readers will not understand what Near East refers to. You therefore changed it to Middle East. I agreed, as a further concession. Now you want to delete material from the section to make it conform to the Middle East header . . .

The header should describe the section, not the other way round, because the section was there first, and it was you, I believe, who added most of these headers in the first place. You can't now change content to fit headers that weren't there until you added them.

If you want to request a reference from the editor who inserted that material, that's legitimate, but you shouldn't just delete it. If you feel the section doesn't match the header, then the header should be changed back to "Jewish-Muslim relations affected by creation of Israel." Slim 23:46, Dec 25, 2004 (UTC)

Looks like a tricky issue. Because I think I can add a full new section of 'middle east'! right? or others which i suggested earlier. But may be i have to wait for others. (But Please note technically I have full right to add that view, which is not covered yet in the article. That is considering jewish friendly countries only)

Any way i think tomorrow i can edit heading. Bcoz if a particular view/angle is not covered. if i won't add it some body else will.

Zain 23:59, 25 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Zain, you are right that anyone has the right to edit articles. No editor has "ownership" of any article. But edits must be in relatively error-free English, and that can be difficult for some people if English isn't their first language. That isn't a criticism of you, so please don't take it that way. I feel it might be helpful if you wait until Ed Poor returns, because he has offered to assist, either here or at State Terrorism, so it would make sense to see what he suggests. Or perhaps Mustafaa would help out, though I can't speak for him, and he may not have time. I don't know when Ed will be back. It may not be for a few days because it's the holiday season in many countries, but it would be a good idea to wait for him as he is a very helpful person. Slim 00:11, Dec 26, 2004 (UTC)

Changing my earlier comments. Actually I thought wrong and it was not me who gave that heading. this view was not even there when I categorized. It was later put by me. You can check in this difference. I was going out but Just thought that you raised incorrect point. My orignal point was not 'existance of anti-sentiment' but my point was the 'increase in anti-sentiment'. My orignal point was washed during reverts.

Please see this for what i added earlier

Page difference (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Arab-Israeli_conflict&diff=8717042&oldid=8716923)

Thanks.

Zain 00:39, 26 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I'm new to this whole Wikipedia thing, but I just wanted to make a general comment about the Arab-Israeli conflict page. It doesn't do that great of a job representing the Palestinian points of view. In short, the central idea of Palestinian thinkers like Edward Said, is that the occupied territories are oppressed areas. Houses are said to be bulldozed all the time to, say, build a road to a new settlement. And settlements are accused of getting preferential treatment all around-- water, security measures, you name it. Settlements are just what they are-- Israelis coming in and building on Palestinian land with a degree of government support.... maybe Israelis claim to hold settlement land legally? I don't know. The military presence on the whole is seen as a problem; just the idea of Israelis with guns who aren't big fans of the Palestinians scares them and it's alleged the military abuses its power.

So my point? But "Life in the Occupied Territories" should be a category. It's a central part of the Palestinian point of view. House bulldozings, checkpoints, and more should be mentioned. Obviously, the Israeli responses should be there too. You do mention settlements, but not as a part of the direct indictment so many Palestinians support.

A final comment-- I hear generally cited stastics (by 'objective' news agencies) that indicate that roughly 1000 Israelis have died in the intifada, and 3500 Palestinians have died. Palestinians like to point those figures out because the media gives us the impression that the intifada mostly consists of terrorist attacks on Israel. Again, any disputes about those figures should be mentioned.

Since I am new to Wikipedia, I don't want to jump into this hornet's nest myself. ---Pat.s

"Israelis name various reasons for aggression toward Israel" is POV

The opening sentence explaining reasons is curently: "Israelis name various reasons for aggression toward Israel. One of the primary reasons cited is anti-Semitism (compare to philo-Semitism)." That version is POV because it implies that aggression towards Israel is an established fact. In fact, to be NPOV it should say, ""Israelis name various reasons for what they describe as aggression toward Israel." I NPOVed the sentence to: "Israelis perceive the roots of the Arab-Israeli conflict in many ways. One of the primary reasons cited is anti-Semitism (compare to philo-Semitism)." --Pravda 03:53, 26 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Apparently different sides are allowed to state their own views of these matters. For example, the Palestinian side states "Palestinians cite many reasons for the lack of support of their cause in the United States, despite its broadly being supported in Europe", which, of course, is POV, since, for example, it presumes a lack of support for their cause in the United States. Jayjg 04:32, 26 Dec 2004 (UTC)

An example of Two wrongs make a right (fallacy)? Instead of accepting POV exceptions to the NPOV rule, the proper course of action is to pursue NPOV more carefully. The POV sentence buried deep in the Palestinian section should be edited to ""Palestinians cite many reasons for the perceived lack of widespread support of their cause in the United States, despite its perceived broader support in Europe". --Pravda 04:44, 26 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Previous POV warrior editors, while claiming NPOV, focussed almost solely on "NPOVing" the Israeli side of the argument into saying things that the Israelis actually didn't say. Let's hope your new sockpuppet is able to focus on NPOVing both sides. Jayjg 04:58, 26 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Let's focus on article content and not your problems with other editors and their problems with you. You should have noted by now that I NPOVed both statements. Are there other POV sentences that need attention? --Pravda 06:20, 26 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Nope check the history and see the headings which I gave to israeli section. They were all POV toward Israel. Like palestenian headings were POV towards Palestine. Reason is that I thought headings can be POV. Nobody objected on it. But when palestenian headings got too strong. 'Policy' of no 'harsh' heading was used. But that too didn't remove the effectivity of palestenian headings. so at the end NPOV heading was choosen. So go back and check the history of the page before you make any claim.

Please Jayjg check it for yourself before you make further false allegations.

Zain 20:43, 26 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Removing Israeli arguments

Zain, please stop removing arguments Israelis and their supporters make. Just because you don't think historical Arab treatment of Jews is relevant doesn't mean they feel the same way. Jayjg | Talk 20:53, 26 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Oh, and here's a quick reference for you to start with [1] (http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/myths/mf15.html#c). Note also the material in the article re: treatment of dhimmis, taken from Moriss's book. Jayjg | Talk 20:57, 26 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I am not saying that they treated good or not. The claim is only about middle east. (ottoman empire areas) Why r u not getting my point the claim is only about ottoman empire areas (middle east approx). I didn't remove libya and others because they come in middle east spain doesn't come in middle east.

So it is geography of the claim which are irrelevant to the claim of 'middle east'. Not that the claim is true or not.

Zain 21:12, 26 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Israeli supporters claim the historic mistreatment of Jews by Arabs is relevant regardless of where they lived. That is their argument, whether or not you think it is valid. Jayjg | Talk 21:17, 26 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Ok I thought you are trying to 'impose' the claim. you can keep ur claim. (although to me it doesn't seem logical).

Problem solved

Zain 21:31, 26 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Regarding maps and caricatures

Greetings. I have been trying to make non-text revisions to this article, which have been immediately reverted (within seconds) by Jayjg. I believe the initial graphic is largely irrelevant to the actual conflict, and ought to be replaced by a close up map of the actually disputed territories that generate the greatest division between Arabs and Israelis. Moreover, the depiction of the Arab League member states in one colour and Israel in another colour smacks of a peculiarly partisan tactic used repeatedly by former Israeli PM Netanyahu (among others) to try and evoke an image of a tiny and defenseless Israel struggling for life and land from a huge mass of surrounding Arab states. This depiction obscures the fact that the territories in actual dispute have nothing to do with those Arab countries not bordering Israel, especially in the context of what has been negotiated and stipulated by both sides up to the present time. Your point about the separate Israeli-Palestinian article is well taken, but Wikipedia is full of separate articles that use the same media resources. I am willing to discuss having both these images side by side. What is your opinion?

As regards the caricature you keep deleting, I think it compliments the existing caricature (which is relevant and quite valid) well, because having only one cartoon depicting the oft-attributed Arab desire to "throw the jews into the sea" is unbalanced. To correct this, I introduced a second caricature depicting an Israeli shark, hinting at the powerful Israeli military machine, devouring a small struggling yet defiant Palestinian boy, evoking the much weaker stone-throwing children that make up the bulk of the Intifadas. This is also played out in the facts on the ground, where Palestinian deaths exceed Israeli deaths by more than 2:1. Arab summits often implore the US to intervene, while accomplishing little themselves, and the view, shared by Arabs and a majority of the member states of the United Nations, that the US usually responds by biased support for Israel and admonishments for the Palestinians, is valid and germane to this article. Thank you. --A. S. A. 07:47, Jan 23, 2005 (UTC)

The map you have given is simply a map of Israel and the territories, not of the conflict between a large number of Arab countries and Israel. As such, it might be relevant to an article about the Israel-Palestinian conflict, but not to the Arab-Israeli conflcit. The map itself has already been agreed to in previous Talk: As for the caricature, the existing one was actually published in an Egyptian paper immediately prior to the war, and directly refers to Arab feelings about Israel; the current one, of unclear provenance, is about Arab feelings about America. America is not Israel. Jayjg | (Talk) 07:59, 23 Jan 2005 (UTC)

The Occupied Territories are the crux of the modern Arab-Israeli dispute. Therefore, including a map of those territories, is extremely relevant to the article. In deference to your views, I have modified my previous opinion on replacing the original map altogether, and placed both maps side by side. As far as the caricature goes, as I said I think it is an important and well placed balancing addition. The US involvement in the Conflict is extensive and discussed in the article at length. This makes the caricature both balancing and relevant. You have deleted both my additions immediately, and three times in a row. I am consequently going to defer to the published Wikipedia "Staying cool when the editing gets hot" guidelines, and stop this revert tug of war, so that I may revisit the disagreement in a day or two. I hope you will reread my opinions and come to agree that including all these images enriches the article overall. P. S. The caricature also depicts Arab views of Israel, not just Arab views of America (i.e. the more powerful Israeli side ravaging a much weaker Palestinian one). P. S. 2: There seems to be some error. You say the first caricature was published in Egypt, but the caption reads Lebanon. Regarding the origins of the second caricature: It was not, I beleive, published in any paper, but was released into free public internet circulation by a Diaspora Palestinian artist. I thought it was an adequate counterbalance to the first cartoon. Sincerely, --A. S. A. 08:35, Jan 23, 2005 (UTC)

I did not delete your contributions immediately or three times in a row; in fact, I re-added one. Please check the edit history. As for your caricature, it obviously has nothing to do with the history of the conflict. Jayjg | (Talk) 08:49, 23 Jan 2005 (UTC)

After waiting several days, I revisited Wikipedia and soberly re-read the article and the Talk. I notice the caption of the map I added has been changed to remove any references to "occupied territories." After reading previous Talk sections, I suppose am not surprised. Several partisans have been adamant that the territories not be labeled as occupied. People, come on. These are territories which have been seized and kept through force of arms, despite the vehement objection of their population. Furthermore, the sovereignty of Israel over any territory it occupied or annexed after June 1967 is not recognized either by the United Nations or any nation in the world, including the United States. Therefore, I find it extraordinary that anyone can claim the use of the adjective "occupied" can be construed as a POV. Yet this is an article replete in controversy, so I suppose nothing is really extraordinary. Therefore, in the spirit of compromise, I will not revert the edit of that caption.

The current caption is more accurate, and has no political agenda. It the caption had been changed to talk about "the disputed territories" or "Judea and Samaria" no doubt you would have been making the same complaint from the other direction. Jayjg | (Talk) 15:55, 26 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Now, regarding the caricature. Your statement that it "obviously has nothing to do with the history of the conflict" is just flatly incorrect. Intifadas have been raging since the 80s. It is now 2005. That most definitely makes it history. I have defended the caricature repeatedly in this talk section and as there are no new arguments, I have nothing further to add. I have consequently returned it. If repeated knee-jerk reverts continue, we can refer the matter to arbitration. Please remember, I have not added or changed any contested factual textual information. I merely added a caricature graphic to counterbalance the first one. According to Wikipedia guidelines, you must believe an addition actually harms the article (not your POV), to be justified in reverting the edit. Belief in irrelevancy, as fantastic as I find that, is not sufficient grounds to delete someone's contributions. Let the readers decide for themselves if it is relevant. Thank you.--A. S. A. 11:58, Jan 26, 2005 (UTC)

The caricature appears to be a non-notable drawing produced on someone's website, illustrating his feelings about the United States. It is not part of the Arab-Israeli conflict. If you want to produce balance, produce a related cartoon; that is, a historial cartoon taken from an Israeli paper showing anti-Arab feeling, or one from an Arab paper showing pro-Israeli feeling (O.K., the last one is a joke, you're not going to find any of those). Irrelevancy is used all the time to remove content from articles, and for good reason; articles should be cogent summaries of a specific topic, not partisan re-hashes of broad and unrelated subject areas. Finally, if we can't work this out on the Talk: page, the next logical step is a Request for Comment, or, if that doesn't work, mediation. It is highly unlikely arbitration would be accepted on this topic, given that the preliminary steps towards conflict resolution have not been attempted. Jayjg | (Talk) 15:55, 26 Jan 2005 (UTC)

We are now repeating ourselves. I've already stated, the caricature clearly depicts Arab views of both Israel and the it's major ally, the US. You may not presume to take upon yourself the sole arbitration of what is relevant, nor have you made any case for how the article is harmed by the inclusion of the caricature. This is the only standard by which Wikipedia allows deletion of other people's contributions. It is my opinion that you do not wish there to be a balancing cartoon, because you want only the one which shows the Arab side to disadvantage. You may not impose on me what kind of cartoon I should introduce, nor from which source. I have compromised substantially on this issue; the caricature will stay unless administrators specifically rule otherwise. As for the caption of the map, I am certain it was changed precisely to follow a political agenda. Trying to deny the occupied status of the territories is as absurd as trying to find euphemisms for the genocide in Rwanda, like "accidental killings" for example. I will not stress again the relevancy of this cartoon, I have explained it fully. Sincerely,--A. S. A. 17:28, Jan 26, 2005 (UTC)

First of all, you have no evidence that this represents any more than one man's view. Second, the source is not particularly notable. Third, you have misunderstood the grounds on which editors can remove information from articles; perhaps you can quote me the section of policy you think states that. Fourth, I have made it clear that I would welcome a balancing cartoon; the problem is, this is not it, but is a cartoon on a different topic from a dissimilar source. Fifth, regarding the caption, please assume good faith; the forumulation I have used is precise, exact, and NPOV. All other forumlations are ambiguous, often debated, a focus for edit wars, and imprecise. Your formulation adds no information, actually muddies the waters, and promotes a political agenda. And finally, I cannot stress again the irrelevancy of this cartoon, and the need to find one that is relevant instead. Jayjg | (Talk) 17:38, 26 Jan 2005 (UTC)

We cannot assume that the artist was a man. It may well have been a woman. Internet circulation has long been considered a reliable gauge of popular opinion. A cartoon by a Diaspora Palestinian artist aggressively circulated by Arabs and interested parties all over the world is a valid expression of a popular sentiment, and in fact specifically highlights the phenomenon of the Diaspora itself. Assuming good faith is increasingly difficult at this stage, for all arguments relating to the caricature to this point have been repetitive and entirely unconvincing. The section of policy you asked me to quote is as follows: "Note that reverts are not appropriate if a newer version is no better than the older version. You should save reverts for cases where the new version is actively worse." This, to me, clearly means that an addition which you have stressed to be so irrelevant should not be reverted. An irrelevant caricature leaves the article no worse off. The fact is we disgree utterly about the caption of the map and the relevancy of the caricature. While I was able to compromise on the former, the caricature dispute obviously requires outside assistance. In situations approaching an edit war, Wikipedia advises a maximum revert of once daily in an effort to cool heals, as it were. I think this is good sense. I will revert one more time today, remaining within the 3RR, and henceforth revert once daily while the dispute resolution proceeds. I am a relative newbie so I hope I have begun the process correctly. I am waiting to hear from an advocate or administratior. I will also look for new Talk comments as often as I can, but I reserve replies for new ideas, because as I said we have been repeating ourselves for some time. Sincerely,--A. S. A. 18:34, Jan 26, 2005 (UTC)

As has been made clear, you've already reached your 3 revert limit. The "new" version was worse than the old, because it contained irrelevant material of dubious provenance. An article with irrelevant material is worse than an article with only relevant material. Your arguments are repetitive as well. If you want more eyes on this, you should take it to Requests for Comment. Jayjg | (Talk) 19:02, 26 Jan 2005 (UTC)

It's difficult to see how the disputed cartoon could be said to be irrelevant to the subject of the article; the fact that it involves the U.S. is at best a red herring (unless the claim is that the notion of Israel as a man(boy)-eating shark is peripheral, which it clearly isn't). Are we really supposed to accept that inclusion of the U.S. makes it irrelevant, and by implication that the U.S. doesn't play an important role in the conflict? Aside from this cartoon, the set of illustrations is dubiously neutral; the first map is particularly bizarre, giving as it does a very misleading impression of the relative strengths of Israel and its enemies, as well as the impression that every member of the Arab League is involved in the conflict in the same way (I know that there's a comment on this in the text, but pictures tend to speak louder than words). I suppose it's inevitable that this should be a page whose editors are more than usually unlikely to be wholly disinterested, but it's good that that generally comes out in the Talk page rather than in the article itself. Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 20:20, 26 Jan 2005 (UTC)

The cartoon discusses the alleged feelings of Arabs regarding American support of Israel; the article does not discuss that topic at all. It's hard to see how a cartoon that is unrelated to article content could possibly be relevant. "Balance" is not about tit for tat, that is "if one side gets a cartoon, the other side gets a cartoon too". The items included must be relevant and notable as well. As I've said before, an anti-Arab cartoon from an Israeli paper would be perfectly relevant and appropriate, not this anonymous cartoon on a topic not discussed in the article. As for the map, it was the Arab League that attacked Israel in 1948, and which declared a number of boycotts against it; the Arab League is definitely involved. Jayjg | (Talk) 03:32, 27 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Well, no, the cartoon doesn't discuss anything. It does, however, indicate – via caricature – a view relevant to the Arab-Israeli conflict, and an essential part of that is the notion that Israel is a large predator attacking small and defenceless prey. The insistence that in order to illustrate an article a picture of whatever sort should focus solely on what is explicitly mentioned in the article is not borne out by other Wikipedia articles, and is surely difficult to argue for. Similarly, I can't see the relevance of the anonymity of the cartoon's creator, nor its lack of "notability". You seem to be appealing to one of the criteria concerning the subject of an article – that the subject be notable – to an illustration in the article. Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 21:47, 27 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Well said, Mel Etitis. You have crystalized the relevancy of the caricature better than I could have done. Your point regarding the Arab League versus Israel map is highly insightful as well. I touched on it earlier in the Talk section. Showing Israel in one color and the rest of the Arab World in another is a favorite tactic of Netanyahu's. He does it on TV frequently, especially when addressing American TV networks. Nevertheless, I did not fight its inclusion when I was able to carry my point of showing a map of the Occupied Territories alongside. Note: Criticizing this particular map and it's color-delineation technique in no way implies that the Arab League is not relevant.--A. S. A. 06:47, Jan 27, 2005 (UTC)

I have a couple of concerns about the recent cartoon, which it looks more anti-Arab than pro-Arab:

• By dehumanizing Israelis (a shark devouring a human child), it shows that the Arabs spread anti-Semitic propaganda. Is that the image of the Arabs you want to project? See also blood libel, zoomorphism.

This is plain silly, I'm afraid. Political cartoons have always thrived on such caricatures, and animal metaphors are particularly common (the Russian bear, the British lion (often moth-eaten), etc.). Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης)

Go on: the Jewish shark devouring Christian and Muslim children. For shame. ←Humus sapiens←Talk 09:11, 28 Jan 2005 (UTC)

I have no idea what you mean here, but you seem to be doing the equivalent of spluttering with inarticulate fury. Do you in fact dispute what I said, and if so, why? What arguments or evidence do you have against the point I made? Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 10:35, 28 Jan 2005 (UTC)

• Regarding the Nasser's cartoon: there is no doubt that Nasser's intention or at least his quote was: NPR (http://www.npr.org/news/specials/mideast/history/history4.html), Pakistan Today (http://www.paktoday.com/style.htm), HNN (http://hnn.us/roundup/entries/8769.html). Several Arab countries backed Egypt in 1967 and in addition to six Arab countries that attacked Israel in 1948-49, many other Arab countries actively supported the aggressors. These are facts (so much for Arab leaders impotently standing by). Your cartoon is an opinion and should be attributed as such. Where and when was it published?

Good grief — of course a cartoon is an opinion not a fact. What reader of the article with an IQ in double figures is likely not to understand that? Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης)

• The "predominant Arab view": how and who measured its support, was there a poll? It's in English, after all.
• I don't think it belongs here at all, but why it was placed in the Six-Day War section? The US did not militarily support Israel until the Yom Kippur War. This brings up a discussion about the ongoing US military help to Egypt, Saudi Arabia, etc. ←Humus sapiens←Talk 11:23, 27 Jan 2005 (UTC)

This seems a pedantic complaint to me (and off-target, given that the cartoon seems to have nothing to do with U.S. military support of Israel), but would Aladdin consider placing the cartoon an inch or two further down the page? Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 21:47, 27 Jan 2005 (UTC)

He should instead consider finding a relevant cartoon, one that actually addresses the article contents. Jayjg ^(talk) 22:10, 27 Jan 2005 (UTC)

It was placed there to counterbalance the existing caricature, as I explained earlier. However, in the spirit of compromise and despite my better judgement, I will offer no objection in principle to moving it away form the 1967 war section, as a purely organizational edit. Mel, if you would that for us, I will reserve my final opinion of the move after I see where it is put. For the last time, the caricature is extremely relevant, and I will not waste key strokes to belabor the point further. It seems to me that we have said our peace on that point, and we must await the eventual ruling of the administrators, assuming the dispute resolution process goes all the way. As far as the Nasser cartoon, I have no objection to it, and you need not try to justify it, at least not to me. I realize that some Arabs and sympathizers with their cause will not like to have this damaging notion of "throwing the jews into the sea" publicised, but it is valid and it existed, and in some quarters continues to exist, and therefore must be faithfully reported. Likewise the caricature I introduced is a legitimate addition that adequately illustrates prevailing perceptions. As for the view of Arabs you think I am trying to project: I am not. Neutrality and balance is what I am striving for. Those other "points" I need not address because Mel Etitis has answered them so eloquently. I think things are really getting quite desperate, if spurious arguments like these are beginning to be flung about. As far as the "predominant Arab view"; there is no credible international contention to this assertion. It is routinely reported as such across international media, including Israeli. Allow me to quote former PM Yitzhak Shamir: "Our image has undergone change from David fighting Goliath to being Goliath." (Quoted in: Daily Telegraph, London, 25 Jan. 1989). There have been in fact polls taken in the Arab world by western researchers and announced on CNN a few times, (Wolf Blitzer in particular seems fond of them) but even without them, the assertion is firm and well supported. I also have no objection to the replacement of the close up map of Israel and the Occupied Territories, since the new map clearly delineates Israel's legal, internationally recognized pre 1967 borders. Lastly, like I said before, I am limiting my reverts to once daily in deference to Wikipedia's guidelines when dealing with an edit or revert war. I advise all contributors to do the same. Sincerely--A. S. A. 03:43, Jan 28, 2005 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but you're regurgitating the same arguments. Top begin with, what you mistake for "legal, internationally recognized 1967 borders" are in fact, for the most part, 1949 armistice lines. The difference is significant. Borders are decided by agreements between opposing countries, and the 1949 Armistice lines were deliberately rejected as permanent borders by the Arab states; I'm sure you can guess why. As for the cartoon, balance would be provided by a similar cartoon from an Israeli newspaper showing Israeli sentiments towards the Arab countries, not an anonymous cartoon on a topic not discussed in the article. I have no objection to such a cartoon; as I said, I welcome it. Jayjg ^(talk) 04:07, 28 Jan 2005 (UTC)

I have regurgitated nothing. I specifically declined to repeat any previous arguments, and confined myself to new points as well as answering specific questions put to me. You have stated your position several times on balance and relevancy, you need not repeat yourself. We disagree. As for the borders, I am not mistaken. Regardless of how the borders were arrived at (and I am aware of the armistice lines), the borders of Israel immediately preceding the 1967 war are the legal, internationally recognized borders.--A. S. A. 04:24, Jan 28, 2005 (UTC)

On what treaties and/or agreements do you base your faulty claim? Jayjg ^(talk) 04:27, 28 Jan 2005 (UTC)

This is no claim. To state that the borders of the State of Israel up to june 1967 are what today is internationally recognized as her legal borders requires no treaty. Neither the United Nations nor any country or independent polity in the world have recognized Israel's sovereignty over the territories it occupied and/or subsequently annexed after the Six Day War. It is a simple statement of fact. It does not address what Israel believes is right, merely what is internationally recognized.--A. S. A. 04:39, Jan 28, 2005 (UTC)

Sorry, I didn't see the documents outlining Israel's legal borders. Could you try again please? Also, please note that Israel has not annexed the West Bank or Gaza, therefore there it has not legally asserted sovereignty over them. Jayjg ^(talk) 04:46, 28 Jan 2005 (UTC)

What we have here is a failure to communicate. I have stated clearly what is meant by Internationally Recognized. There is no treaty the the whole world has to sign in order for the term "international recognition" to be applied. All member states of the UN do not recognize the legality of Israel's occupation of the West Bank, Gaza, and the Golan. No non-UN member recognizes the same either. Furthermore, I distinctly said "occupied and/or subsequently annexed" to preserve the difference, so you need not edify me on what Israel has officially annexed. Also, please note that Israel has placed illegal settlers even in non-annexed territory, in contravention of the Geneva Convention. Israeli law and protection, and therefore a very important measure of sovereignty is extended to these settlers--A. S. A. 05:07, Jan 28, 2005 (UTC)

In fact, UN resolutions implicitly recognize that the Israeli armistice lines are not final borders, and the Oslo Accords recognize Israel's right to occupy. As for the Geneva Conventions, even if there were a High Contracting Party making them relevant (which there is not), the articles in question apply to involuntary population transfers. Jayjg ^(talk) 15:47, 28 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Both sides have stipulated that a final peace settlement may redraw borders, giving Israel some territory in the West Bank to encompass as many settlements as possible, so that as few as possible will have to be evacuated. Any such agreement would give Palestine corresponding uninhabited territory inside Israel, while preserving a contiguous border for the West Bank portion of the Palestinian State. This does not alter the fact that the 1967 borders are what the whole world, the UN especially, recognizes as the lawful frontiers of Israel, where her sovereignty and military presence is lawful and not in contravention of International Law and UN resolutions. The Oslo Accords in no way recognize Israel's "right to occupy." What it does is stipulate to the fact of the military occupation, by way of providing for limited Palestinian self-government in the form of the Palestinian Authority, as a prelude to a final settlement. As for the Israeli settlements on Occupied Land, the Fourth Geneva Convention specifically applies to them, and those Israeli prevarications which you summarized have been universally rejected in official diplomatic order by all nations of the world as well as by the International Court of Justice. The plain fact of the matter is that the Conventions are at complete odds with Israeli policy. One example: War Crimes; Under the 1949 Conventions collective punishments are a war crime. Article 33 states: "No protected person may be punished for an offense he or she has not personally committed," and "collective penalties and likewise all measures of intimidation or of terrorism are prohibited." As I'm sure you are aware, Israel routinely demolishes the homes of the families of suicide bombers.--A. S. A. 05:19, Jan 29, 2005 (UTC)

Legal experts on the matter disgree with almost all of your claims, but I realize that this is not the place to debate this. Jayjg ^(talk) 00:44, 30 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Come now, what legal experts are these? The Israeli Bureau of Wishful Thinking? I'm sorry to be facetious but the fact is that Israel has lost so often and so consistently in international legal disputes, that virtually her only defense of late is that the whole world is anti-semitic. Her position visa-vie the Geneva Conventions, UN resolutions, ICJ rulings and diplomatic standing in the world all belie your statement.--A. S. A. 09:58, Jan 30, 2005 (UTC)

Julius Stone, for one.[2] (http://www.aijac.org.au/resources/reports/international_law.html#settlements) And how many "international legal disputes" do you imagine Israel has been involved in regarding this issue? Again, please outline the specific legal statements which converted Israel's 1949 Armistice Lines, clearly recognized as interim and temporary, to permanent legal borders negotiated by peace treaties. Jayjg ^(talk) 16:50, 30 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Julius Stone! Of course. A jew and a zionist. A most unbiased commentator! As I have said before, the prevarications championed by zionist partisans like Stone have been universally rejected. Of course there are supporters of Israeli occupation and expansionism, but their cause is clearly not credible, in terms of international opinion. As for the international disputes you asked about: Incessant resolutions in the UN Security Council, General Assembly, and ICJ (West Bank Wall case being the most recent). Not to mention the universal diplomatic non-recognition of both Israel's claims and the arguments put forth by the likes of Stone. As for the borders, this communication breakdown is really most remarkable. Please see my input above, dated 04:39, Jan 28, 2005, 05:07, Jan 28, 2005 and 05:19, Jan 29, 2005. I shall not repeat myself.--A. S. A. 01:17, Jan 31, 2005 (UTC)

Ah, yes, you asked for legal experts, and as soon as I bring one, you pull out the old "Jew and Zionist" card. I guess his CV means nothing: From 1942 until 1972 he was the Challis Professor of International Law and Jurisprudence at the University of Sydney. From 1972 until his death in 1985 Professor Stone held concurrently with his appointment as visiting Professor of Law at the University of New South Wales the position of Distinguished Professor of Jurisprudence and International Law at the Hastings College of Law, University of California. In 1956 he received the award of the American Society of International Law, and in 1962 he was made an honorary life member of the society. In 1964 the Royal Society of Arts named him as a recipient of the Swiney Prize for Jurisprudence. In 1965 he received the World Research Award of the Washington Conference on World Peace through Law. His 26 major works include the authoritative texts Legal Controls of International Conflict, Aggression and World Order, The International Court and World Crisis and the Province and Function of Law. As for General Assembly resolutions, they are irrelevant to international law; rather, they are popularity contests, as are most Security Council resolutions, including the ones one the territories. The ICJ ruling was about the security barrier, not about Israel's lack of borders. And Israel's lack of borders goes both ways; a number of countries don't recognize Israel as legal in its current Armistice lines, and critical U.N. resolutions anticipated that they would change before a settlement was reached. Finally, arguments put forward by "the likes of you" have nothing but ignorance and prejudice to contribute to a discussion on International Law, particulary as compared to "the likes of Stone". Jayjg ^(talk)

It is plain you think this is the place to debate this, after all. Very well. You fail to recognize the sarcasm (much less the rhetorical question) implicit in the comment "The Israeli Bureau of Wishful Thinking". It was not experts I was demanding you produce, it was a comment that such expertise does of course exist in zionist circles, and is internationally discredited, especially in terms of universal condemnation of Israeli occupation and settlement activity. It is not a card one pulls when one points out that the expert you cited is so clearly biased and a member of an ideology. I reject your implication that the use of the word "zionist" and "jew" are intrinsically racist or in anyway imply ignorance or prejudice. Stone's position and background is clearly not impartial, no matter what impressive list of accolades he has achieved. What's more, his arguments have failed repeatedly in the UN and are reflected in the official diplomatic standing of all nations in the world, none of which support his reasoning or his conclusions. Naturally, when Israel loses, resolutions and world bodies become popularity contests, and the whole world is anti-semitic. Also note: While General Assembly resolutions are non-binding according to International Law, Security Council resolutions most certainly are. Nevertheless, both are a manifestation of an "international dispute" that Israel consistently loses. The recent ICJ ruling was an advisory opinion, but nevertheless clearly rules on international law, and the Wall, by duly considered international law, is illegal. Note that I did not say it concerned borders, and was an example of an International Dispute that Israel lost, which you specifically asked me for. Action demanding its removal, must be made by the Security Council. Finally, I must ask you not to engage in personal attacks on me. Your last sentence was offensive and petulant in the extreme.--A. S. A. 02:15, Jan 31, 2005 (UTC)

I haven't seen any "discrediting" done by anyone, outside of your claims. The issues of the legality of settlements is different from the issue of the legality or even existence of an occupation. Ad hominum arguments are indeed a "card" that people pull when they have no substantive arguments, and when the labels "Zionist" and "Jew" are used to dismiss arguments, rather than rational discourse, there is only one logical conclusion. No-one is particularly impartial about anything, though they may pretend otherwise, and Stone's arguments have not been tested in a court of law; the geo-political maneuverings of various interest groups at the UN are irrelevant to them. Your strawman arguments regarding "Israel losing at the UN" are noted and discarded; the UN is a body where countries advance their own political interests, and this has nothing to with the strength of Stone's legal arguments. As you admit UNGA resolutions and ICJ advisory positions have no impact on International Law. Nor do most Security Council resolutions, except Chapter 7 resolutions, none of which have been made against Israel. As for my comments, they were no more offensive that your "the likes of Stone", the "Jew" and "Zionist", comments were. Jayjg ^(talk) 15:48, 31 Jan 2005 (UTC)

If the universal rejection by every nation in the world, independent of the UN, of the views espoused by Stone and his supporters [read: likes of Stone, absolutely no derogatory meaning implied] does not prove to you the utter discrediting of his legal arguments, then nothing will. Stone is not the only expert arguing for Israel; A little research will produce more, just as it will produce an avalanche of expertise of the opposite view. The main point is that this sort of reasoning (pro-Zionist) officially failed as expressed by Security Council resolutions and ICJ rulings, as well as the afore-mentioned universal diplomatic rejection. As for the ICJ having no impact on International Law, that is flatly incorrect. The court has no power of enforcement, that rests with the executive branch of the UN, the Security Council. Nevertheless rulings of the ICJ are international law, which the UNSC uses, along with other sources, in it's role as enforcer. Your reasoning that I have engaged in argumentum ad hominem is a red herring to try and paint me as a racist. I repeat: The use of the terms "Jew" and "Zionist" are in no way racist. In fact, suggestion to the contrary smacks of racism, by implying that the "Jew" and "Zionist" are inherently "bad". I have given you enough rational discourse to fill a tank, we both have. Scroll up and and reread it. What we have said and more is contained in the International law and the Arab-Israeli conflict article. Even so, if you wish to debate further, you shall not want for a respondent.--A. S. A. 07:07, Feb 1, 2005 (UTC)

Everyone is entitled to an opinion. You seem to be confused about a few things, one of them is NPOV policy and I urge you to learn what it is. Imagine people adding frivolous pictures and "what really happened" to articles describing other conflicts in history, in order to bring what they perceive "balance"! A libelous cartoon of unknown origin and date doesn't belong in a serious encyclopedia. ←Humus sapiens←Talk 08:25, 28 Jan 2005 (UTC)

The caricature is by no means libelous, that is an outrageous suggestion. I don't think you understand the nature and definition of a caricature at all, in fact. You are now grasping at straws, and I will not attempt to engage you in this ridiculous assertion. I doubt very much that Wikipedia administrators will find it libelous either. We shall have to wait for their decision on that score, as well as the disputed relevancy. I am well aware of the NPOV policy, that is why I am persevering in this cause. --A. S. A. 08:55, Jan 28, 2005 (UTC)

The Palestinians are presented as a child, the Jews as a shark: no, not libelous at all. Stop the intimidation ("grasping for straws", etc): it won't work. ←Humus sapiens←Talk 09:11, 28 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Your position seems to be that anything representing the Arab side's beliefs and attitides is libellous, and this is accompanied by a steadfast refusal to address the point that political cartoons work by exaggeration, caricature, and metaphor, frequently in terms of animals. As the Wikipedia article notes, political cartoons in the form of story-lined comic strips are "often denounced by traditionalists as being little more editorial columns desguised as cartoons." (so, by clear implication, other political cartoons are not).
I think that your strong PoV is leading you to see (wrongly) neutral material as representing the other PoV. That's natural and human, but you need to stop and reflect. Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 10:35, 28 Jan 2005 (UTC)

(1) "Your position seems to be that anything representing the Arab side's beliefs and attitides is libellous" - you are wrong, and bringing this straw-man shows your own POV. (2) Every "exaggeration, caricature, and metaphor" risks to cross a red line. ←Humus sapiens←Talk 09:48, 30 Jan 2005 (UTC)

As I said earlier, I will not even attempt to argue this point. To counter such an assertion, I have neither Mel's patience nor eloquence. But I am curious as to Jayjg's opinion. We know your opinion on irrelevancy, but do you believe this caricature is libelous?--A. S. A. 11:22, Jan 28, 2005 (UTC)

No, I don't consider it libelous, and I'm tired of arguing. I've moved the image to where it is at least peripherally relevant, the section on Arab views of the U.S. position. Jayjg ^(talk) 15:47, 28 Jan 2005 (UTC)

I wish it noted for the record that I accept the organizational edit of Jayjg in relocating the contested caricature. Unless there are no further deletions of this graphic, I should be pleased to declare the dispute resolved by amicable consensus and substantial compromise, in the best traditions of Wikipedia. My thanks to all the editors and the people who took time to help with the Talk discussion.--A. S. A. 05:19, Jan 29, 2005 (UTC)

If the cartoon is to be included, the text must be fixed. ←Humus sapiens←Talk 09:48, 30 Jan 2005 (UTC)

What do you mean, fixed? The caption has already been changed twice, and I have made no objection. Weren't one of these changes yours? Please take care not to insert any POV comments into the caption. A caricature is supposed to reflect only the opinion being dramatized by the artist. As you can see, no Arab face-saving comments have been inserted into the Nasser cartoon.--A. S. A. 01:17, Jan 31, 2005 (UTC)

Humus Sapiens fixed the caption after making that comment, and before you made your comment. Jayjg ^(talk) 01:58, 31 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Armistice lines or borders?

"The Armistice Demarcation Line is not to be construed in any sense as a political or territorial boundary, and is delineated without prejudice to rights, claims and positions of either Party to the Armistice as regards ultimate settlement of the Palestine question." [3] (http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/mideast/arm01.htm)

"The Armistice Demarcation Lines defined in articles V and VI of this Agreement are agreed upon by the Parties without prejudice to future territorial settlements or boundary lines or to claims of either Party relating thereto." [4] (http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/mideast/arm03.htm)

Questions? Jayjg ^(talk) 01:53, 31 Jan 2005 (UTC)

None. Israeli sovereignty over territory within the 1949 armistice lines, alternatively known as the 1967 borders, is not in dispute by Egypt, Syria, Lebanon, Jordan or the PA. Most Arab League States have stipulated the same. Likewise the world recognizes Israeli sovereignty over those territories, acknowledging that a final border agreement is pending (as mentioned earlier). I wouldn't be surprised if Qaddafi's government is probably in belligerent opposition to anything agreed so far, but that is neither here nor there, Libya has no contested borders with Israel. It is also by no means certain that Iran's current theocratic government will ever recognize Israel or normalize relations. The point being, quotations form the armistice agreement are not in contradiction with statements set forth in earlier Talk segments.--A. S. A. 06:55, Jan 31, 2005 (UTC)

Your reply is interesting, and often factual, but not relevant. The fact remains that the documents which define the Armistice Lines themselves make clear that they are not borders. QED. Jayjg ^(talk) 15:51, 31 Jan 2005 (UTC)

It's amusing to see you declaring QED on a factoid that is not in dispute. Please note that (a) in international media coverage, (b) in negotiations between the combatants, (c) in commentaries by world leaders and the like, the armistice lines are repeatedly referred to as borders. The term "armistice lines" is rarely mentioned, nevertheless they are valid and will be revisited when a final peace agreement is reached and borders are agreed upon by treaty. In the interim, the phrase "1967 borders" and alternatively "pre-1967 borders" will continue to be used by the world to refer to what they consider as Israel's lawful frontiers, without prejudice to the legal status of a final border agreement.--A. S. A. 07:07, Feb 1, 2005 (UTC)