Talk:Bioethics of neonatal circumcision - Definition and Overview

The bioethics of male circumcision is being increasingly questioned by bioethics authorities. A page is needed to air this controversy.Robert Blair 05:21, 26 Nov 2004 (UTC)

NPOV

Robert Blair, what on earth were you thinking when you made this edit (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Bioethics_of_neonatal_circumcision&curid=1210949&diff=0&oldid=0)? Are you aware that Wikipedia has an NPOV (neutral point of view) policy? I've made necessary changes to bring it some way towards neutrality. I've removed Van Howe (since it is flawed and far from definitive), and instead have noted the controversy and linked to medical analysis of circumcision. This improves the article because readers now have access to all the information, rather than just Van Howe's tripe. I've also removed the sentence about physician's refusal because it is covered elsewhere in the article. - Jakew 15:31, 1 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Revert

Robert Blair, why did you revert my edit to the human rights paragraph? I carefully read the links and edited that section for factual accuracy.

• There is nothing in Smith's article to suggest that The Netherlands Institute of Human Rights shares Smith's belief's - it's not a formal statement on her employer's behalf. It should say that it is her opinion.
• Again, Gulbrandsen does not appear to speak for Norwegian Council for Medical Ethics. It's just a letter in a journal, and an individual's interpretation. The paper discusses ritual circumcision only (which should be mentioned explicitly), and doesn't seem to discuss human rights - only ethics.
• Lastly, why did you remove the explanation of the purpose of Attorneys for the Rights of the Child? (", which campaigns against circumcision,"? It's perfectly true, and informative.

I've reverted your revert. - Jakew 00:21, 4 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Jakew, your sentence reads One author's interpretation of a statement by the Norwegian Council for Medical Ethics claims that the Council has determined that ritual child circumcision violates important principles of medical ethics. This seems to be redundantly qualified. (interpretation...claims that) Please correct. And I invoke your "principle of one". "One author" should be "An author", so as not to suggest others in the Council state the opposite. DanP 01:28, 4 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Happy now? - Jakew 01:39, 4 Feb 2005 (UTC)

The Norwegian report is simply reporting the action of a professional body - The Norwegian Council for Medical Ethics. it is not a letter. There is no controversy about it. All of this qualification is unnecessary and inappropriate. - Robert Blair (sig added by Jakew)

It is most certainly a letter, by a single author. Your change is bad, but I cannot currently undo it due to the 3RR. I have made some NPOV changes to the article (please stop this POV pushing. See Wikipedia is not a soapbox (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:What_Wikipedia_is_not#Wikipedia_is_not_a_soapbox)). - Jakew 02:20, 4 Feb 2005 (UTC)

It is not a letter. It simply is a report by a reporter of an event. It should be no more controversial than a report of a traffic accident. It was published in a Norwegian medical journal. My change is correct.

Also, there is no controversy about the foreskin being protective. It protects against meatitis, meatal ulceration, and meatal stenosis. This is well documented in the literature. Robert Blair 03:24, 4 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Incorrect. It appears to be a letter, by a Pal Gulbrandsen.

Secondly, there is indeed controversy about the foreskin being protective. While it is true that some authors claim protection against the meatal problems you mention, it is impossible to diagnose these problems in an uncircumcised child. That is to say: there is no way of knowing whether uncircumcised children have fewer problems or not - they just can't be recognised and treated. - Jakew 03:29, 4 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Seems that the pro-mutilation side (even if correct) isn't actually diagnosing higher rates of HIV in the intact men in the US. They are projecting it, even before we are born. If your side can claim broad magical powers of the mutilated penis, why does this not hold when the protection is based on having the whole organ? DanP 14:51, 4 Feb 2005 (UTC)

It is not a letter. Gulbrandsen is a reporter, reporting the news. He does not represent the Norwegian Council on Medical Ethics. This is a news report.

I have revised the text to eliminate the controversy and therefore, I have removed the disputed tags because they are no longer necessary.

Robert Blair 19:03, 4 Feb 2005 (UTC)

It quite clearly is a letter. What possible reason do you have for believing otherwise?

I have removed your hopeless POV pushing, and restored the disputed tags. It is considered very bad form to remove a disputed tag before a dispute has been cleared up - please do not do so again. I reverted rather than editing, because you completely reverted my hard work in NPOVing your previous edit. You're obviously just going to replace my carefully NPOVed text with POV rubbish, so there appears little point in trying. - Jakew 22:29, 4 Feb 2005 (UTC)

1. A google search of the website produces 555 articles by Pal Gulbrandsen. Clearly, he is a staffer/reporter for the journal, not a contributing letter writer.

1. Jacqueline Smith is/was on the staff the Netherlands Institute of Human Rights. Her paper was published in a book produced by the Institute. The book is named To Baehr in Our Minds: Essays in Human Rights from the Heart of the Netherlands. If the Institute did not accept her conclusions, it would not have published the paper.

I don't believe what I'm reading! Are you seriously suggesting that publishers always believe every word they print? Of course they don't: they're essays, not policy statements. - Jakew 01:55, 5 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Recent edit

I've made a number of changes to the article. Some comments are in the text, but to summarise:

• Introduction: tried to streamline it and ensure that it is NPOV. It's ok to summarise different views here, but we shouldn't make a case either way, or even present all the evidence. An introduction ought to be concise.
• Added comment about AAP Bioethics approval of AAP statement.
• Removed cite of Hill on "parent-centered" view. We should not cite an opponent of that view when describing a view. This is like citing a Creationist group when giving a description of evolution.
• Changed links to original sources, where available.

-Jakew 00:04, 6 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Canadian Children's Rights Council

DanP, would you explain why you feel the article benefits by including views on medical benefits rather than ethics? - Jakew 00:14, 9 Feb 2005 (UTC)

You raise a good point. I took my quote entirely out-of-context, and I can see where it could be interpreted as medical. In the paragraph I meant to quote more appropriately, at issue was the notion that the child-centered-view is not served by the medical debate. There is a lot of overlap, I suppose. I will fix it. DanP 00:52, 9 Feb 2005 (UTC)