Talk:Evacuation_of_East_Prussia Talk:Evacuation_of_East_Prussia

Talk:Evacuation of East Prussia - Definition and Overview

"Prussian Holocaust" is inherently POV and returns only 8 google hits, including 3 on Wikipedia (this article and 2 talk pages. Pending someone coming up with a better title, I've moved it to "Soviet ethnic cleansing of East Prussia". Mkweise 14:11, 28 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Thanks. 'Prussian holocaust' looked like a bait for a huge flame war. I did some amendments in effort to replace unpleasant nationalist propaganda with NPOV. Namely I changed mention of German historical provinces to 'lands that were to be taken from Germany in light of Potsdam agreements.
I write of propaganda because in reality that territories have very complicated history of settlement, conquest and peaceful culture mixing. Consider Silesia: first settled by Celts, then resettled by Slavic peoples, then included in early Czech state, then conquered by Polish prince, then ceded to Bohemia then annexed by Prussia, then unified with Germany and finally given to Poland.
However a phrase 'lands that were to be taken from Germany' is both neutral, factually correct as it points to Potsdam and hints to true cause of the misery of Germans. So please consider this before changing it to something else.
Also I mentioned an historic irony of Russian ethnic cleaning mirroring Nazi ethnical atrocities. I think it is a good conclusion to the article - it provides not only info on mayhem of World War II but also context hinting at some further reasons .
-- Forseti 15:51, 28 Mar 2004 (UTC)
I much agree with your changes. — Jor (Talk) 15:53, 28 Mar 2004 (UTC)
I don't think the title 'Prussian Holocaust' is all that POV, I've heard the term used before but maybe we should try to strive for a compromise.--[[User:Plato|Comrade Nick </small>@)---^--]] 01:06, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Jews want to "own" the term Holocaust, they also want to own "Genocide" - they even want you to forget that 42 million Christians died in WWII because they think 6 million of theirs is much worse.

This article is waaaaaaaaaaaaay POV. It really needs work to make it NPOV. -- ChrisO 13:48, 5 Apr 2004 (UTC)

In which way is it POV? Then I suppose you also think the Holocaust article is "waaaaaaaaaaaaay POV"? Nico 18:34, 5 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Contents
1 Conspiracy theory ?
2 Evacuation of East Prussia
3 Relevance Facts and Statistics
4 Fleeing
5 do you need references, or what?
6 Solzhenitsyn quote
7 How to proceed with article

Conspiracy theory ?

The following piece was removed by Nico, with the comment that Bernhard Fisch is a rather unknown "hobbyhistoriker". I have no knowledge in this domain, so let someone else decide. Gute Nacht.

<<< Without denying the latter, on the other hand, there are indications that the Nemmersdorf massacre was actually performed under the command of Goebbels, in an attempt to stir up the civil resistance before the advancing Red Army. Bernhard Fisch, see reference, in his book Nemmersdorf, October 1944. What had actually happened in East Prussia managed to find new eyewitnesses and analyzed both German and Russian archives to present a more realistic picture of the events.

- == Reference ==

- Bernhard Fisch, Nemmersdorf, Oktober 1944. Was in Ostpreußen tatsächlich geschah. Berlin: 1997. ISBN 3-932180-26-7, 192 pp, price: 14,80 DM. >>>

Mikkalai 20:41, 5 Apr 2004 (UTC)

IMO it does not say that the purges did or did not happened. What it says is that are people who doubt it - which is perfectly NPOV. Just like the Holocaust article should mention that there are some who deny the Holocaust and that's in illegal in most of Europe. IMO it should be insterted back.Halibutt 05:34, 6 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Evacuation of East Prussia

The name for the article, how it is right now, seems apropriate. If you really think, that the Soviet crimes in East Prussia deserve seprate entry, please create an entry called Soviet crimes in East Prussia and it would be referenced in the main article, in section dealing with the reasons for evacuation. Cautious 07:20, 6 Apr 2004 (UTC)

How about a compomise, then? Evacuation and Soviet ethnic cleansing of East Prussia? It certainly ought to be in the same article. Nico 08:05, 8 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Nico, I would prefer not to mix to much in one article. Create Soviet war crimes entry with the reference to Nemesdorf, then remove the parts of the current article, that are dealing with soviet crimes and then add reference, that the evacuation began as reaction for the crimes of Soviets. Add the end add reference to expulsion and the article is ready. What do you think? In current state, one doesn't know if the article is about evacuation, crimes, ethnic cleaning. And encyclopedia article must have clear subject. Cautious 08:18, 8 Apr 2004 (UTC) Removed: All the inhabitans (men, women, and children) were slaughtered, as well as French prisoners-of-war. Many women were raped before they were murdered, and in at least one farmyard the women were stripped naked and nailed through their hands in cruciform position. To each of the two doors of a barn near the village inn a naked woman was crucified. At least 72 women with children were slaughtered, while their babies had their heades smashed in.

This is so thick a propaganda. You can find exactly same statements for every war for every side. Besides, it is absolute nonsense about crucifixed bodies. Crucifix means nothing for atheist Soviets. Rapes, yes. They are common war thing. And it was not only in Nemmersdorf. Mikkalai 17:57, 8 May 2004 (UTC)

"German forces fought heroically to hold the roads westward open so their fellow countrymen could escape."

Fought heroically, who as written this whole article ? It's not hard to guess !

This might've been anyone. Heroism does not depend on political option or side of the front. That's what it reads on many Wehrmacht graveyards in Poland - They fell as heroes. Halibutt 08:01, 12 Jun 2004 (UTC)

I heavily reedited the article, as at previous verion it was unacceptable and extremally POV. Obviously, the Soviet crimes in Prussia or Silesia committed on ethnic Germans (but also on local Polish population) are historical events that just took place. But on the other hand we can not mix war crimes committed by Soviets with evacuation carried out by German authorities and finally, with undoubtly ethnic cleansng which took place many months after events described - I mean transfer of German population of this area as a rasult of Potsdam Agreement. And this is (or pretend to be) an encyclopedia and there is no place for eruptions of emotions.Yeti 18:52, 10 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Relevance Facts and Statistics

This articles says:

According to German side, all the inhabitants of those villages were killed. This pattern would in the following months repeat itself across entire East Prussia, and then spread to West Prussia, Pomerania, Brandenburg, and Silesia — in other words the lands east of the Oder-Neisse Line that were to be taken away from Germany in light of Potsdam conference agreements.

As it was reported as a war crime in the first two villages are there any records "all the inhbitants" killed in any other village? If not how is it know that it happened? It it was so common why single out this village? Did it only happen east of the Oder Neisse rivers. If so that would imply that it was orchestrated. Is there any proof of this? Is it true that the killing stopped at the Oder and Neisse rivers? If not then why imply that it did?

Possibly, more than 2 million people in the eastern provinces of Germany died, great majority of them with frost, starvation and fightings but some were killed directly by Soviet forces.

I have two problems with the above and the in the previous paragraph West Prussia, Pomerania, Brandenburg, and Silesia

  1. I thought that this article was about East Prussia not about all the German lands east of the Oder-Neisse rivers.
  2. Of the 2 million killed how many were German soldiers? But more importantly why mention the deaths of the whole area why not just those in East Prussia?

Fleeing

Fleeing from the advancing Soviet forces, the German refugees trudged in great columns through the snow at -25°C, while Soviet aircrafts performed shellfire raids on them.

When and Where?

The three big Soviet advances which effected East Prussia moved so fast that I doubt that much trudging could have taken place during the offensives without being quickly overtaken at which point any strafing would have stopped. If it was not an emergency evacuation why trudge when it was -25°C? I don't doubt that some unfortunate soles did this but what percentage of the total? How many stayed put? How and what were the conditions, under which most were evacuated?

At at technical level "aircrafts performed shellfire raids on them" is a bad translation from another language, German?. They may have bombed them, rocketed them, or strafed them with machine guns and cannon fire; but they did not performed shellfire on them. Philip Baird Shearer 13:26, 24 Oct 2004 (UTC)

do you need references, or what?

These things happened. I came to this article because I was discussing the Prussian Holocaust with a friend, and went to check the wiki article on the subject. I found a pro-soviet disgrace, and preceeded to repair it, and was twice reverted, once in my page move, and again in my restoration of factual content. If its references you need, I'll provide them, but don't revert or remove bulk content w/o evidence and discusson. Wikipedia:revert. Sam [Spade (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=User_talk:Sam_Spade&section=new)] 01:18, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC)

You don't repair a "pro-Soviet disgrace" by replacing it with a pro-Nazi disgrace, my friend. The term "Prussian Holocaust", which was quite obviously designed to equate the horrendous Nazi Holocaust against the Jews with the (quite violent and bloody, I admit) vengeance exacted by the victims of Nazi agression on ethnic Germans, simply reeks of pro-Nazi POV. Further, you'd better have evidence for all those gruesome anecdotes before you put them back in. -- Mihnea Tudoreanu 01:29, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC)
No problem, there is plenty. Sam [Spade (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=User_talk:Sam_Spade&section=new)] 01:31, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC)
There is a lot of evidence for the so-called evacuation of East Prussia (I'll find links for you guys.)--[[User:Plato|Comrade Nick </small>@)---^--]] 01:49, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I was thinking more along the lines of evidence for claims like "to each of the two doors of a barn near the village inn a naked woman was crucified". -- Mihnea Tudoreanu 18:54, 13 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I thought my links were ample, but apparently not. Try [1] (http://library.flawlesslogic.com/crucify.htm) [2] (http://www.exulanten.com/murder.html) [3] (http://www.sweetliberty.org/issues/wars/witness2history/17.html) [4] (http://www.fullbooks.com/Inn-of-Tranquility-et-al.html) [5] (http://www.couchspud.freeserve.co.uk/prize.htm) and [6] (http://www.geocities.com/avflf/RedTerror_1.htm). Sam [Spade (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=User_talk:Sam_Spade&section=new)] 21:15, 13 Nov 2004 (UTC)
You use a website called the "Racial Nationalist Library" (reference no.1) as a trusted source for WW2 history? Are you out of your mind? The big fat "Our race is our nation" motto right on top of the page should at least give you cause for some doubt regarding the accuracy of their claims. I'd also like to point out that your reference no.4 is a novel - as in a work of fiction, and at any rate I have been unable to locate anything related to the Evacuation of East Prussia in it. Your reference no.5 has nothing to do with Prussia or WW2 at all, because it is in fact a Hercules fanfiction story. So tell me, is this some kind of a joke?
The remaining 3 references are at least credible at first sight; I will look into them as soon as I can. -- Mihnea Tudoreanu 22:07, 13 Nov 2004 (UTC)
To my best knowledge ref #1 is actualy correctly quoting Alfred-Maurice de Zayas book A Terrible Revenge. The testimonies collected in the book are propably reproduced correctly, and Zayas is relatively reputable scholar. IMO the problem of the book is selection of what is said and how it is presented. Apparently image acquiered from the book by typical English-speaking intellectual with poor prior knowledge of Central Easter European history is badly distorted.
Quoting from Amazon reviews: "This work has bore light on perhaps the greatest atrocities of the entire war." "A balanced review of an act of vengance" "This tragedy, that was the extermination of an 800-year old civilization in Eastern Europe, is regrettably an event that still remains an unknown, even in modern western intellectual circles" "This book will be intstrumental in understanding the future evolution of Polish-German and Czech-German affairs." "...but after reading about the atrocities committed by Russians I found myself wishing the Soviets had bitten the dust in 1941."　
Holocaust deniers, WWII historical revisionists and neo-nazis must love such book.
I hope here on Wikipedia we can avoid this distortion just by enforcing NPOV. --Wikimol 00:23, 14 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Ref. #3 is assorted mix of quotations. The way it is sorted is problematic and some quoted sources are IMO not credible. E.g. Charles Lindbergh or some article from German neo-nazi newspaper Deutsche Nationalzeitung.
Ref. #6 is from Austin J. App affilated with Institute for Historical Review. Quoting from nizkor archives, "...Austin J. App, a professor of English at the University of Scranton and LaSalle College, also played a central role in the development of Holocaust denial, especially in the United States."
--Wikimol 11:33, 14 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Sorry if one or two of my links sucked, I threw that together on short notice. I have an active life, and don't always have enough time to do more than steer others in the right direction towards the facts I already know so very well. Anyone who thinks the Soviet Union was any less monstrous than Nazi Germany has alot of unpleasent research to do. People are bad all over the place, and I'm tired of Germany serving as the scapegoat while modern day ethnic cleansing goes on before an uncaring pop culture. Ok, end of rant ;) Sam [Spade (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=User_talk:Sam_Spade&section=new)] 01:56, 14 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Every nation has their own load of shitheads. And nearly every nation has some skeletons in cupboard of their history. It is an unpleasant task to uncover them, but care must be taken not to confuse KFC bones for them. While it is undeniable that East Prussia suffered, the article reeks with lack of diligency. BTW, this way of presentation also casts shadows of doubt on the very topic itself. If one sees a piece of bullshit, the rest becomes suspicious as well. Mikkalai 02:21, 14 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I'm not much concerned with suspicions. I entered some key words into google, and listed off a half dozen links while talking to my family and then hurried off when my friend came up to see what was keeping me. If you are suspicious, maybe that will help you read more carefully. If you think I'm being sneaky, maybe the fact I accidentilly linked to a hercules fan-fiction will allay your worries ;) My agenda here is one of neutrality, to help partisans understand that everybody suffers. If my links are less than perfect, maybe you should consider that when next I come before you for a pay raise ;) Sam [Spade (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=User_talk:Sam_Spade&section=new)] 02:28, 14 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Engaging in a discussion on a touchy of subject while sitting on your left hand is not a good idea. Do you think we are idiots and cannot use google when we ask you for links? If you don't have anything serious to say, don't waste other people's time. The first thing I noticed when I looked into some several hundred of linnks is huge discrepancy in every single fact, indicating that the issue had risen to the level of legend. So, if one wants to take part in writing seriously on this subject, one has better stay away from the family for a while. Mikkalai 02:44, 14 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Not just one or two, but all your links fall into three cathegories

  1. Total nonsense.
  2. Excerpts from de Zayas.
  3. Quotations which can be traced back to neo-nazi propaganda and/or holocaust deniers. Holocaust revisionists disguise themselves as pseudo-science and on first sight may look credible (give references, publish journals,...)

--Wikimol 11:33, 14 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Types 2 and 3 are relevant here. Your suggestion that I am wasting your time by providing you with leads which you were and are unwilling to gather for yourself is almost as preposterous as your suggestion that
"if one wants to take part in writing seriously on this subject, one has better stay away from the family for a while"
which strikes me as the sort of madness I should expect on joining a cult or communist cell, not in discussing matters of weight on an volunteer open source reference source. If you were my boss, I'd fire you. As is, I advise you:
Please review and revise your wretched attempts at personal advice.
Sam [Spade (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=User_talk:Sam_Spade&section=new)] 21:52, 14 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Solzhenitsyn quote

After the paragraph Allegedly, Soviet troops had been told... Solzhenitsyn quote would be IMO good. Please, can anyone find it in The Gulag Archipelago English editon? Its in first part first chapter. I found online only Russian original online and there the paragraph is:

Да! Три недели уже война шла в Германии, и все мы хорошо знали: окажись девушки немки -- их можно было изнасиловать, следом расстрелять, и это было бы почти боевое отличие; окажись они польки или наши угнанные русачки -- их можно было бы во всяком случае гонять голыми по огороду и хлопать по ляжкам -- забавная шутка, не больше. Но поскольку эта была "походно-полевая жена" начальника контр-разведки -- с трех боевых офицеров какой-то тыловой сержант сейчас же злобно сорвал погоны, утвержденные им приказом по фронту, снял ордена, выданные Президиумом Верховного Совета -- и теперь этих вояк, прошедших всю войну и смявших, может быть, не одну линию вражеских траншей, ждал суд военного трибунала, который без их танка еще б и не добрался до этой деревни.

in English its somthing like

Yes! Three weeks the war was going inside Germany, and all knew very well every German girl can be raped ...

--Wikimol 23:46, 14 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Did you see any different war anywhere? Also, did you notice that russian soldiers could also play games with russian and polish girls found in Germany? It is a very nice way of quoting pieces out of context. I am just curious why you didn't "translate" the following piece instead: "every German girl can be raped and then shot down - it would be almost battle honor". Do you really think that this piece of literary exaggeration may be converted into an encyclopedic piece, kind of "In Soviet Army, soldiers were awarded military honors for raping german women"? Mikkalai 02:30, 15 Nov 2004 (UTC)
As for "allegedly told", this is bullshit. First, the term "nazism" was not in use by Soviet propaganda. It was all "german fascism" and "german-fascist occupants". And second, it was only very well known to everyone that "german fascism" was born in Bavarian beer pubs, i.e., hardly in eastern prussia. Mikkalai 02:30, 15 Nov 2004 (UTC)
  1. Yes, but in scope it was different. The level of hate in WWII was greater than in many other wars. Because of German behaviour on Soviet territory, casualities and Soviet propaganda Soviet troops hated Germans more than soldiers in most wars hate their enemy.
  2. Yes.
  3. Because the paragraph begins with what I had translated. Pourpose was only to help someone find it in English edition.
  4. Solzhenitsyns Gulag Archipelago is not a work of fiction. IMO the paragraph describes a mood in the Red Army - "now we are on German terriotry, now we can take our revenge". IMO reader understands soldiers werent awarded honours for raping, but on the other hand they knew they wouldnt be prosecuted for that.
  5. "Allegedly..." - I hadnt examined every piece of this article. My contribution to that part is the word allegedly.

--Wikimol 10:33, 15 Nov 2004 (UTC)

How to proceed with article

Sam, please stop reverting to a version that contains a lot of false statements presented as truth. Mikkalai

Please research the subject before you edit again. Sam [Spade (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=User_talk:Sam_Spade&section=new)] 02:52, 15 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I am in no way to defend Soviets, but your lack of diligency in etail is appaling. In no way I am going to defend soviets, but this careless exposition is shooting into its own leg. Mikkalai

  1. nemmersdorf: date incorrect
  2. crucifixion has no meaning to Soviet soldiers. This nailing is pure invention of goebbels.
  3. there was no propaganda that nacizm was invented in East Pruissia for simple reasons: (1) the terms "german fascism" and "german-fascist occcupants" were in use, and (2) every russian schoolboy knew that "german fascism" was born in Bavarian beer pubs.
  4. The overall text has a number of inconsistences, showing pattern of careless edits without eading carefully what was written before.
  5. Presenting the picture of horror as an established fact without source of reference is inadmissible.

You need more? Mikkalai 02:55, 15 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I will follow your advise and do further research. You, on your side, please don't put neonazi propaganda here indiscriminately. I am starting from a simple non-contradictory test and will add facts in the order of their verification, discribing it here, one by one. I suggest you to do the same, to avoid silly game of reversals. Mikkalai 02:57, 15 Nov 2004 (UTC)

The detailed description of Nemmersdorf event is in its own article. Only summary is preferrable here, since the Nemmersdorf case is a potential place of its own conrtoversy, so let it be localized in its place. Mikkalai Doing my research, withiout haste of cut and paste.

  • In Soviet historiography, Prussia was presented as the root of "Prussian militarism and reaction" (not with historical reasons). This is probably the origin of the strange phrase about alleged propaganda of "Prussia as birthplace of nazism". Mikkalai 03:53, 15 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Added to article. Mikkalai 05:19, 15 Nov 2004 (UTC)
  • Nobody is surprized that the article says nothing about actual evacuation, after Potsdam conference. Why's that? Mikkalai 03:58, 15 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Because its known as expulsion. See German exodus from Eastern Europe. --Wikimol 10:42, 15 Nov 2004 (UTC)
It is not an argument. The reference you mention does discuss Potsdam. In fact, it is the Potsdam part that matches the "expullsion" word. The events during the war were "fleeing", "genocide", whatever. Mikkalai 22:07, 15 Nov 2004 (UTC)
The reference itself does not, but just after introduction it points to Expulsion of Germans after World War II.--Wikimol 23:04, 15 Nov 2004 (UTC)
  • The phrase about Nemmersdorf controversy to be moved to Nemmersdorf. Mikkalai 05:19, 15 Nov 2004 (UTC)

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