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From the page
- The term Hebrews is sometimes used by certain Christian groups to distinguish the Jews in ancient times that lived before the birth of Jesus from Jews that lived afterward. Though important in some Christian theologies
How do we add to the page why such groups would wish to make this distinction? OneVoice 14:58, 27 Jan 2004 (UTC)
I am not sure OneVoice but if you find out please add it in.Zestauferov 02:27, 17 Feb 2004 (UTC)
Llywrch why are you censoring me again? Interesting to note that nobody else who watches this page found anything remotely controvercial about what I had wrtitten since Feb 6th I should mention to those reading that though granted sysop rights this is no big deal an Mr L has no-more authority than the rest of us too revert all progress on the page. Also Mr L does not really have any real interest and certainly not knowledge about the subject but just considers me a pest and thus that he is doing us all a favour by censoring all my contributions.
Jews are Israelites, Israelites are descendents of Heber, and Christians use the term in ways differend from Jews. Granted it is also a term used to refer to a New Testament Book but this is all mentioned in the article. Is it really worthy of disambiguation? If you watch this page could you please make a comment on which version you think is better?
Thankyou
Zestauferov 02:26, 17 Feb 2004 (UTC)
Canaanite Religion
Removed text
- The traditional head of the Canaanite pantheon who would later become the angry, jealous God of the Old Testament, whereas the Canaanite elite began to favor El's son, Adad, whom they referred to as "Baal" (translated as "The Lord"). The god El was worshipped in various parts of the Near East in ancient times. The Babylonians worshipped Ellil as the god of air, with a distinctly angry and jealous personna, but Ellil was not the primary god of the Chaldean pantheon since early Sumerian times. The Sumerian name for El was Enlil, but the Sumerians soon began to favor his brother Enki, and the Babylonians favored Enki's son, Marduk. Enlil's son Adad was prominent in the Sumerian pantheon, but not so much as one of his other sons, Ninurta, who is often associated with Lugalbanda.
- The Hebrew worship of El became more pronounced after the Canaanite ("Hyksos") invasion of Egypt that ended Egypt's Middle Kingdom times. Egypt began its new kingdom times by reconquering the Canaanite controlled Lower Egypt and expelling or enslaving the invaders. The Hebrews, seeking an end to slavery, used their god as a rallying call for unification, declaring El (or Yahweh) to be the only god, following Pharoah Akheneten's popularization of monotheism. Upon returning to Canaan, the Hebrews at times took control of Canaanite cities, leading to generations of a power struggle between El worshippers and Adad worshippers. King Solomon temporarily halted this struggle by, for a time, uniting all Canaanites under the old polytheist system.
This is an interesting new perspective but it probably belongs under Canaanites not here since it deals mainly with the Canaanite religion. I notice that some of the facts are erroneous however and suggest the contributer check his/her sources once more and try to read through the glossing. Zestauferov 02:20, 17 Apr 2004 (UTC)
To
Dear friend,
Hurrians, Hebrews, Habiru were not a Proto-Iberian ethnic group (or Proto-Iberian non-exclusive ethnic group)!
With best regards,
Levzur (Dr. Levan Z. Urushadze)
It is interesting to see your about-face considering your reply to Kaz [1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Caucasian_peoples#To_Kaz) on what you eventually made into the Caucasian peoples page. I should correct you though that although I know little about your version of Protoiberians (I still think the term is Hatto-Iberian), I do know that Hebrews & Habiru were both certainly non-exclusive ethnic groups. However we are grateful for revealing your final opinion on the suject. Zestauferov 01:06, 22 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Dispute: Hebrews as Canaanites
Considering the following phrase:
- Many Hebrews were originally Canaanites ...
Many many people are going to disagree with that on religious grounds. The page can never be considered NPOV so long as this is phrased as if no one disagrees. There are some times in the Old Testament where a Canaanite marries into a Hebrew family, but whether Hebrews were originally Canaanites is a matter of strong dispute. Maybe the dispute can be lifted if the article can be phrased in such a way that is sensitive to the sensibilities of both dispassionate scientific thought and Abrahamic religions, without definitively endorsing theory over religious belief or vice versa. - Gilgamesh 09:39, 29 June 2004 (UTC)
Yes that comment was made on 16:02, 28 Mar 2004 by user 66.65.168.180 who tried to re-write
the article as if Hebrews were nothing more than canaanites. A perspective which ignores much of the available evidence but is still a perspective none the less.Zestauferov 12:13, 29 Jun 2004 (UTC)
Alright then... So, what are going to do about it? The reason I haven't changed it myself is that I personally don't know much about the Habiru or Hurrians. I'm more into Biblical history and linguistics, not as much into archaeology, cuneiform, etc. I'm sure there's lots of valid science and study; I just haven't covered it all yet. - Gilgamesh 12:29, 29 June 2004 (UTC)
It is well known in Canaanite history that El was once the most favored god, but that Adad/Hadad was later the favored god, and the ongoing conflict between the Canaanite factions was identical to the ongoing conflict described in the Old Testament between the "Hebrews" and the Canaanites. After Exodus, they lived side by side, and each successive political regime usually resulted in a shift in the balance of power between the factions, except during the reign of Solomon who was respected by both sides, and who had his famous Israelite temple built by Hiram, king of the well known Canaanite city of Tyre, and of course in the first Temple of Jerusalem, many Canaanite gods were honored:
"...This tale was derived from the so-called Elohim (E) text of c. 750 B.C., and was apparently the origin legend designed to account for the serpent-god of bronze that was in those days worshipped in the Temple of Jerusalem, together with certain images of his Canaanite goddess-spouse, Aherah." - Joseph Campbell, Creative Mythology. Also, history refers to a Canaanite invasion and conquest of Lower Egypt, followed 100 years later by an Egyptian re-conquest of Lower Egypt and expulsion and enslavement of the Canaanite invaders. The Old Testament refers to the event soon after in which these thousands of slaves joined together under the leadership of Moses and left Egypt to return to Canaan, as Israelites. For a much more in-depth discussion on the Hebrews' origin and emergence from Canaan, see "Canaanite Myth and Hebrew Epic", by Harvard University's Professor Frank Moore Cross (Hancock Professor of Hebrew and Other Oriental Languages, Emeritus).
Editing
I have taken some speculative statements out of the article and tried to put in a bit of a wider perspective without disagreeing with what was in there originally. It was a complicated time and place in which the Hebrews lived, and there is a lot of thought that they were a "mixed multitude" (Numbers 11:4) of people who had survived the collapse of the great empires around them, not ethnically homogenous nomads. Fire Star 06:22, 6 Sep 2004 (UTC)
asks of the Avars: What is the relation between them and the Hebrews?
- That is a good question. There is no historical relation between them, to my knowledge. Fire Star 04:45, 1 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Between 18:35, 3 Aug 2004 and 06:15, 6 Sep 2004, a lot of facts were removed without discussion. Would those responsible like to work on it again please this time expanding the points you disagree through discussion in the article itself rather than simply removing the info you disagree with. For example "the biblical Noah story was almost identicle to the Hurrian one even though both may have their origins in the Gilgamesh version" would have been a better way of including the Sumerian comment rather than simply replacing all reference to the Hurrian vewrsion. This would certainly help readers like me to understand the arguments for and against certain stances. Thank you.81.132.98.240 12:50, 29 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Does anyone have a copy of this book?
- " Hurrian Hebrews; Ea as Yahweh; The Origins Of The Hebrews & "The Lord" "
I am trying to find out about its contents.
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