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Does anyone have any information on where the "anomalies" in Indian English grammars listed (the use of the progressive in static verbs, for example) came from? Did they develop somewhat arbitrarily simply as language drift, or do they mirror grammatical forms in other (non-English) Indian language and were imported from there into English? --Delirium 20:41, May 23, 2004 (UTC)
- Grammar Structure in Hindi differs from English. It's kinda like French. For instance, when I was learning French, I would formulate a sentence in English(since English is my strongest language), and then convert it to French (or vice-versa). This often had disastrous effects. Take the phrase Je Vous Remercie, which literally translates as I You Thank. If "I You Thank" is not considered French English, I don't see why similar structural mistakes are included in Indian English. More often than not, these "anomalies" are actually just bad English spoken by non-native speakers of the language. I hypothesize mostly from personal experience, but I intend to get some professional views on this phenomenon soon.--LuciferBlack 05:06, Aug 16, 2004 (UTC)
- Usages are accepted in a dialect if enough people communicate with them and accept them. If there were a community of people who were used to saying "I you thank," that would be considered part of the dialect. If we're accepting that Indian English is a dialect that has grown separately from British English and American English, then there are going to be anomalies in grammar. Thirdreel 13:53, 16 Aug 2004 ()
Unique Phrases in Indian English
I'd just note that "godown", listed as an example of a word "unique to Indian English", is used to describe apparently the same structures (river- or dock-side warehouse) in Singapore and Singaporean English. So, to be pedantic, it probably shouldn't be included here, or at least not described as unique to Indian English.
Of course both the godowns themselves and and the name were undoubtedly imported into Singapore during the Raj, but nevertheless they're clearly not uniquely Indian. For all I know, the term may have been commonplace in various Malayan englishes, or further afield.
Does anyone know the name of the academy that guides the development of Indian English? It has escaped me. --63.231.226.163 04:56, 2 Aug 2004 (UTC)
There are other words on this list that are not unique to Indian English (and may not even have originated there)...for example glass means tumbler in British english (I think, at least it does in Australia), and specs is slang for eyeglass (spectacles) in Australia. It seems to be quite common for a particular group to think that their usage is unique when it is not.
--GPoss 11:54, Aug 28, 2004 (UTC)
Rrjanbiah, would you please explain the expressions that you added on Aug 26th? If possible, I'd like to know your sources for "Hello, What do you want?" and "Q: How do you do? A: I'm fine. Thank you". I've never heard of the former being used politely, and my Oxford isn't being very cooperative in the latter case. --LuciferBlack 21:36, Aug 28, 2004 (UTC)
- I must say that these expressions are not readily encountered. Most Indians, whether or not their English is good, say "Namaste"/"Namaskar", "Salaam aleikum" or "Hi"/"Hey"/"Hello"/"How are you?". Often they'll use expressions from Hindi like "haal kya hai?" or Bengali "ki khobor?" and then lapse into English. It sounds like these Rrjanbiah additions are more geared to a specific community as opposed to a pan-Indian circle. --LordSuryaofShropshire 21:50, Aug 28, 2004 (UTC)
- By judging your remark, I understand you don't know anything about India. Ever did a phone call to some Hospitals or offices?? --Rrjanbiah 04:36, 30 Aug 2004 (UTC)
- LuciferBlack, 1. It is common expression in India especially at hospitals, offices (in phone or in reception). I came to know, the expression is rude for native speakers from the seminar of Prof. Nedumaran, one of the good communication experts. 2. [1] (http://www.woodlands-junior.kent.sch.uk/customs/behaviour.html). BTW, are you a native speaker (I guess, you're not)? If so, what is your English (BrE, CaE,..)? --Rrjanbiah 04:40, 30 Aug 2004 (UTC)
Rrjanbiah: Your pseudo-decisive comments about what I do and do not know ring of arrogance. I'm quite familiar with India, having lived there and interacting with Indians on a daily basis. Regardless, I have removed this:
* Q: How do you do? A: I'm fine. Thank you (Without knowing the real expression "How do you do?". "How do you do?" is a formal greetings and the correct reply is just to repeat ";How do you do?")
First of all, even in America or the UK, "How do you do?" or "How are you doing?" is adequately answered by "Fine, thanks." or some variation thereof. In this case, either reply is 'correct,' and in fact the supposedly 'wrong' answer is them most common one outside of India.
As for the second one, which I've left, I'm still not sure that's an example of 'Indian English' or simply 'bad English.' But whatever. By the way, try to be less willfully contentious Rrjanbiah. You constantly assume that the moment someone disagrees with you he/she is a hyper-fundamentalist patriot psycho who hates, specifically, you. In reality, most of us, certainly I, just want to edit and work on a clean, neutral and factual article. --LordSuryaofShropshire 15:33, Aug 30, 2004 (UTC)
- Just another example of typical LordSuryaofShropshire-ism... You always criticize others but trying to project you're the one who knows everything. Regarding "How do you do?", I couldn't understand how native speakers will reply wrong; and I hope some native speaker will comment on that. --Rrjanbiah 04:33, 31 Aug 2004 (UTC)
- FYI, Rrjanbiah, I came of age in Bombay (yes, I still call it Bombay), and currently reside in Canada. So I *have* had sufficient exposure to Indian, British and Canadian English. Ow, I hate being nice while nursing a hangover. Just go read what Shropshire said. --LuciferBlack 20:37, Aug 30, 2004 (UTC)
LuciferBlack, the major problem with NRIs is that they don't understand/try to understand what others say; and they think they're the one who knows everything. --Rrjanbiah 04:36, 31 Aug 2004 (UTC)
- Rrjanbiah, the major problem with Indians currently living in India is that they don't understand/try to understand what others say; they think that they're the ones who know everything. Criticisms of bias and ego run both ways buddy.--LordSuryaofShropshire 17:32, Aug 31, 2004 (UTC)
- Shropshire, you steal the retorts from my mouth :) --LuciferBlack 13:18, Sep 1, 2004 (UTC)
Include canonical phrases / words
WRT the back and forth edits between LSofS and Rj, I have a suggestion to make. Why don't you just include canonical phrases/ words that have been used in advertisements, other media, etc.,?
I disagree with LSofS on the one letter difference- in fact saloon is a very interesting word and is not similar to the colour/ color conventions or other conventions such as s/z or c/s that are standardised in many words. I was not aware of the salon/ saloon connection - maybe there is an interesting etymology to it too, it is worthy enough to be included! In daily life in India, at least in Tamilnadu, in every small town and maybe even in village, a saloon refers to a "barber shop" frequented only by "gents"(that's another Indianism) KRS 18:17, 31 Aug 2004 (UTC)
- Well, unfortunately, Rj misinformed regarding saloon as referring to salon. If it means what you're talking about, then it has a well-established Euro-American precident in "saloon," a congregatory hall, frequently for men, in which drinks and such would be served (see cowbow westerns). Also, "gents" is not an Indianism, in the sense that it was not coined by Indians. It's a known contraction all over the world. --LordSuryaofShropshire 18:40, Aug 31, 2004 (UTC)
- Salon is not only misspelt in Tamil Nadu, it is also misspelt in Kerala and Bangalore (I have witnessed that). Only very few women salon, correctly spelt that. A google search suggests [2] (http://www.google.com/search?q=india+beauty+saloon), the word is misspelt even in Jaipur, Mumbai and many other places in India. --Rrjanbiah 11:37, 1 Sep 2004 (UTC)
- It's not misspelt, we've already determined this. It is referring to the Euro-American saloon. Look up a dictionary.--LordSuryaofShropshire 16:17, Sep 1, 2004 (UTC)
Saloon
http://www.cogsci.princeton.edu/cgi-bin/webwn2.0?stage=1&word=saloon
1. barroom, bar, saloon, ginmill, taproom -- (a room or establishment where alcoholic drinks are served over a counter; "he drowned his sorrows in whiskey at the bar")
2. public house, pub, saloon, pothouse, gin mill, taphouse -- (tavern consisting of a building with a bar and public rooms; often provides light meals)
Salon
http://www.cogsci.princeton.edu/cgi-bin/webwn2.0?stage=1&word=salon
1. salon -- (gallery where works of art can be displayed)
2. salon, beauty salon, beauty parlor, beauty parlour, beauty shop -- (a shop where hairdressers and beauticians work)
3. salon -- (elegant sitting room where guests are received)
In Indian English, Saloon means beauty salon (Salon) [3] (http://www.google.com/search?q=india+beauty+saloon)
--Rrjanbiah 05:15, 2 Sep 2004 (UTC)
- I agree with you Rrjanbiah, I also wanted to cite references- saloon in the Western context has no relation to saloon in the Indian context, the Indian context saloon has to be the Western context salon KRS 06:28, 2 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Yes, I think, the right place to discuss about this issue is a.e.u. I have some doubts in English especially "How do you do?" and "Saloon"; I'll post there sometimes later (as I'm bit busy now) and will update here. --Rrjanbiah 07:59, 2 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Indian English Vs. Hindi
"Someone" has added so many Hindi words like yaar, etc and suggesting that they're Indian English. In fact, it is *not*. When someone couldn't find any words in English, they used to mix their native tongue. yaar is used just a fashion in informal context by few Hindi speakers (rarely others). Every native speakers have their own mixing gesture; for example, in Tamil someone may talk like "Ok da", "Tell me da", etc. And these words cannot be a Indian English; but there might be some generic term to refer these. --Rrjanbiah 04:29, 2 Sep 2004 (UTC)
- I fully support you on that (only moral support, no editorial support as I don't have the time:-))! KRS 06:31, 2 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Thanks for your support and acknowledgement:) Please look at my previous reply. --Rrjanbiah 08:00, 2 Sep 2004 (UTC)
- I disagree. There are many non-Hindi speakers who use the word 'yaar' so commonly in English that it has become a part of Indian English. I do understand that occasional usages of words from Indian languages in English doesn't qualify, but this has become part of the popular lexicon. If you want to add Tamil words, that's fine. But there is definitely a definable set of characteristics of Indian English. If even 50% of Indians speaking English use the word 'yaar', or 'matlab', or 'keh', in their ENglish regularly, then it seems reasonable to add it in as a part of INdian English. As I said, feel free to add Tamil words used frequently by Tamilians when speaking fluent English. --LordSuryaofShropshire 15:01, Sep 3, 2004 (UTC)
"Your obident servant" is now considered outdated in Indian official communication (dho 03:37, 28 Nov 2004 (UTC))
In addition to "yaar", there are several other words listed for which it is questionable whether they are examples of Indian English, or instead Hindi words that are used commonly by people who speak both Hindi and Indian English. Masaalah is not an English word, it is an Indian word. In addition, why is this listing even here? There is another page for English words of Indian Origin. They belong on that page, if at all. That page has been updated and some of the words given in this list are no longer on the list of English words of Indian origin. I have removed the offending words in both instances pending a reason they should be returned.
Tritium6 16:27, 27 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Incorrect use
I can see a common thread in the discussion about which word should be considered to be included in "Indian English". Well, I have certain reservations. For example, I feel uncomfortable to consider "yaar" as adopted in English. Use of a particluar word like "yaar" by 50% does not justify. In fact, it should be categorized as an incorrect English. And later on when foreigners start using it, it will be a valid candidate to be considered as an English word of Indian origin.
The category of incorrect English (contributed by Indians) would include Primus a brand name of a stove used as if it is equivalent to stove. If you ask Indians above 40, they would be knowing that in India (and in particular in western part) people did not know the word stove. Instead they use the word primus only. Now with the new generation and wide-spread use of LPG, the word primus is not used as the carosene stove is not used. Let me also add that just like this Xerox is a brandname of a photocopying machine derived from the name of the company. But now throughout the globe to xerox is used as a verb interchangeably with to photocopy. So, it should be and is accepted as an English word.
Dinesh Karia
--Karia 18:46, 29 Nov 2004 (UTC)
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