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The 'Erae' are highly idiosyncratic. I've never seen them used in English. Having an "Era" identified by "secular" political rulers makes a statement that is historiographically suspect. I am removing these.
There would be a kind of logic to putting in secular ruler-indications in periods in which the popes reported their elections to particular rulers for approval/notification (and that in itself is a very controversial issue - no eastern emperor ever 'refused' a papal election, so 'approval' isn't exactly it), but to even mention the 'Savoyards'! Better to call that 'the prisoner of the Vatican phase' or some such. Better yet to leave this a simple, chronlogical, unmodified list. MichaelTinkler
Since the papacy is not a simple, chronological list (see Pope Benedict IX as an example) why not put some kind of dividers in? The have been trends in the papacy and secular influences have been extemely strong for much of the time. Also a broken up list is easier to view and comprehend. If you really cannot stand the erae list, the one that inspired the break up of the list is on the Pope page.
- I agree that it is easier to read - but the divisions have to be meaningful. This list, which seemed to concentrate on what 'secular' power controlled much or most of Italy in a given period is meaningless in the case of an institution which was often (if not always) broader in scope than central Italy. I could understand centuries or 500 year blocks, but this list was not useful. Mentioning the Heruli and not the Habsburgs? Hmph. MichaelTinkler
I believ the list of Antipopes should be mereged with thsi one but Antipopes would be in italics? -fonzy
- I don't think they belong here. They have an article of their own and that's where they should stay. The list of popes has a somehat "official" label as it corresponds to the list the Holy See provides. But there is no official list of antipopes. There are enough links pointing between the popes and the antipopes to keep the connection. -- JeLuF
List of future popes
In due deference to the work involved in counting and formatting it, I've place the "List of future popes" here, but removed it from the article. The next pope (whenever there is one) could chould the name Gloria for all we know. We shouldn't try to be augurs. -- Someone else 03:41, 18 Oct 2003 (UTC)
Next Pope could choose one of these names
- 3: Pope John Paul III, Pope Marcellus III
- 4: Pope Callixtus IV, Pope Julius IV
- 5: Pope Eugenius V
- 6: Pope Celestine VI, Pope Martin VI, Pope Nicholas VI, Pope Sixtus VI
- 7: Pope Paul VII, Pope Adrian VII
- 9: Pope Urban IX, Pope Alexander IX
- 10: Pope Boniface X
- 13: Pope Pius XIII
- 14: Pope Leo XIV, Pope Innocent XIV
- 15: Pope Clement XV
- 16: Pope Benedict XVI
- 17: Pope Gregory XVII
- 24: Pope John XXIV
and others less likely.
much more useful before overelaboration.
I think this was a much more useful list before so much "stuff" was added to it. It's far too cluttered now with trivia that could be placed in the individual articles (e.g. exact dates of accession). As an example of a previous more useful version: [1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=List_of_popes&oldid=4131492). - Nunh-huh 04:16, 7 Aug 2004 (UTC)
- Surely a list of incumbents should include precise dates as far as they are known. Otherwise you may just as well have a straight list of names and forget the dates. Then you may as well dispense with the names as well.
- It is also worth reminding a reader that the names by which the reader of the English Wikipedia might refer to a subject may not be the name by which they are known in the context in which they exist (or existed); for instance before the development of the English language there was no such word as Pope, in that context. And the words Simon/Peter certainly did not exist at the time the individual was around - yet many people probably think that that was the actual name of the individual at the time.
- The problem with including facts (stuff or trivia is a subjective distinction) in the biographical details is that it is less easy to compare details than it is in a list.
- I agree there should perhaps be two levels of lists for those interested in whatever either list has to convey, however when that is tried then usually both get swiftly listed in Votes for Deletion by an over-zealous Wikipedian.
--JohnArmagh 06:55, 7 Aug 2004 (UTC)
Years are sufficiently precise for papal reigns. The "Pope Database" might usefully include a month and day for election, and a month and day for coronation, months, days, years, of various ordinations, date of election (if any) to Cardinal, etc., but a "List of Popes" profits from none of them. Alternative names can be given in the pope's article. As the article currently is, it has no utility (even the TOC has been broken). The once instructional notes on numberings have become unfocussed, and less informative, and two mentions of a mythical Pope Joan is at least one too many. - Nunh-huh 07:05, 7 Aug 2004 (UTC)
Nope - I have thought about this for a couple of days and I still disagree, mainly about the dates issue. I am resolute in the opinion that any worthy list of incumbents to an office should at least have the actual specific dates of the perceived start and end of the tenure where this detail is known. I would not consider other dates (ie ordination etc.) to be relevant in this list, nor necessarily the date of birth (which is included in some lists) so you will not find such detail included in the lists I edit/create.
--JohnArmagh 17:11, 8 Aug 2004 (UTC)
Naming convention
Why have SOME of the Pope articles been moved? Pope Felix I for example, but not Pope Alexander I. RickK 19:45, Oct 13, 2004 (UTC)
- SargeBaldy thought the pope articles should have titles similar to other monarchs...it is being discussed on the Naming conventions page, but I don't think it was agreed that this should be done. Adam Bishop 19:47, 13 Oct 2004 (UTC)
- Whichever way this goes the solution should be a consistent one - not half-and-half. Having said that the title 'Pope John II' is immediately distinguishable from any other 'John II'. As other John IIs are called John II of France and John II of Portugal and John II of Aragon, to call Pope John II simply 'John II' would imply that the pope was the definitive John II - which is nonsensical in this sense. The alternatives would be to change all the popes to '.... of Rome' or '.... of the Vatican' or '.... of the Papal State' - none of which could be acceptable - or alternatively '...., Pope' in which case why go through the effort to change it at all? --JohnArmagh 05:54, 14 Oct 2004 (UTC)
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