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This whole article is full of racist, zionist lies, to the point that I don't even know where to begin, except to suggest that readers check out Palestine for a slightly more neutral article, as well as the following off-site links: http://www.electronicintifada.net, http://jerusalem.indymedia.org, http://www.palsolidarity.org, http://www.jewsagainsttheoccupation.org. j.
As of this writing Dec-2001, many Palestinians no longer see the Palestinian Authority as the true representatives of the Plaestinian people. They are being seen more and more as tools of the Israelis, and another way for Israel to control the Palestinians through military means. Until justice is done, and Israel is forced to leave all occupied territories, no Peace will come about. Yasser Arafat is fast losing his popular support. Unless Israel and the USA do something soon, to create a Palestinian state, The Palestinian Authority may collapse, and civil war will result. I am sure that this in the long run is Ariel "the Butcher" Sharon's agenda. - Joseph (Proud Canadian, Palestinian Refugee)
- That is an imporant point. I may happen to disagree with this perception (I believe that Arafat has never been interested in doing what the Israeli government wants), but an encyclopaedia entry on a government can rightly discuss how the people view the legitimacy of that government. If the people you spoke about were only a tiny percent, it would not warrent mention. But I have read that a significan minority of Palestinians feel this way, and this may ultimately change the PA in a dramatic fashion, or overturn it entirely. I am sure that this can be added to the entry. I will add something on this, and let me know if it sounds Ok and has a NPOV (neutral point of view) RK
OK, I can live with this, the main point is conveyed. It is interesting that now, Jan 30, Yasser Arafat is a virtual prisoner of Israel. Palestinian support (of the PA) has increased marginally, perhaps this was Israels way of avoiding collapse. Many groups/factions of Palestinians now ask, Yasser Arafat: "you made peace with the Zionists and Americans where did it get you, what did we win?: they now dare to say to him that armed struggle (of any kind) is the only way. The situation is very bad. Joseph Saad
Regarding this sentence:
- The Palestinian Authority (PA) is a semi-autonomous state institution nominally governing the Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza?.
What does "semi-autonomous" mean? Does the PA have sovereignty in Gaza? or in the West Bank? Is Gaza still an occupied territory -- with Israeli military forces guarding/controlling/oppressing it? How about West Bank, which is divided into A, B and C sectors? Are all 3 classes of sectors still "occupied" by Israel?
- The Palestinians claim they are (Israeli/settler presence still creating a de-facto occupation); according to the Fourth Geneva Convetnion, the creation of a self-government (in this case, the PA) is a way of ending a military occupation; I did not come accross comprehensive legal position documents of either side on this subject. --Uri
Please note that I am not asking whether Israel is right to occupy these. I am just asking what they are doing. Only after the 'pedia articles comprehensively state what is happening in the Middle East will it be possible to start writing the articles explaining the advocacy. (Hmm, on the other hand, maybe the dispute over what really has happened is equally contentious. Oh, well, we oughta at least try.)
Ed Poor
- before being bombed by Israel, and a sea port was being constructed in Gaza but met a similar fate
The fate of the sea and air ports is discussed below.
- Meanwhile, the guest workers have emerged as a new underclass in Israel.
It is not relevant to this article
- More recently it has been used by Israel as a defence for its refusal to resume peace talks.
Uh, not by its own right.
- Also, it is not obvious even Israel even desires such a change, as the Palestinians population has beeen radicalized by Irseali military incursions, which have killed and maimed many Palestinians.
Biased and incorrect. Look up Israeli (sp!) opinion polls; if there's something both the Left and the Right agree upon is that Arafat & Co. pose a serious impediment. --Uri
My apologies; I shouldn't have said "remove his emotional opnion." "Restore reasonably unbiased version" might be better, I hope. Would Q want to discuss this?
- Many Palestinians and some Israelies hold that Israeli forces were deliberately attempting to destroy the Palestinian Authority infrastructure.
This was redundant, as the point has already been stated. Everybody knows that Israel is targetting PA infrastructure too. --Uri
The following is deleted until clarified:
- The PA maintains a 45,000-man uniformed organization employing armored cars and whose members carry automatic weapons. Officially termed a "police force", it is in reality something in between a militia and an army. In violation of the Oslo Accords, it is about 3 times the size permitted.
Where does the 45,000 figure come from? Note that later in the article the count is said to be 30,000. Also the Oslo accords (http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/Peace/iaannex1.html#article4) specify the limit as 30,000 which is 2/3 of 45,000 and not 1/3 as claimed. --Zero 13:15, 9 May 2004 (UTC)
The following item is misleading and of doubtful relevance to this page:
- The Abraham's Oak "Holy Trinity" Monastery located in Hebron belonging to the Russian Orthodox Church was seized on July 5, 1997 by Palestinian Authority policemen who physically removed the monks and nuns. Several of the monks and nuns required hospitalization.
In fact, what was going on was a dispute between two rival Russian Orthodox churches that the PA intervened in. The PA took it from the group in control of the monastery and give it to another group which claimed it. Details here (http://www.stetson.edu/~psteeves/relnews/hebron.html). --Zero 00:04, 10 May 2004 (UTC)
- hosptalizing the monks and nuns was, of course, necessary.
- there are two separate incidents...one in 2000 one "In 1997, however, at the request of Alexy II, Palestinian police expelled "White" church clerics from Hebron's Monastery of Abraham's Oak and installed their "Red" church counterparts." last line of the page. the other in 2000 "Two American nuns, including a sister of ex-Clinton aide George Stephanopoulos, stubbornly stood their ground Monday in a monastery Palestinian police tried to seize over the weekend." [1] (http://www.hrwf.net/html/palestine2000.html)[2] (http://www.jpost.com/Editions/2000/01/17/News/News.1362.html)
Then we have this item:
This is false. The ancient synagogue (a ruin discovered in 1936) was not damaged. The damage was to a yeshiva built nearby in the 1990s. More information here (http://www.geocities.com/m_yericho/jericho.htm). --Zero 00:23, 10 May 2004 (UTC)
- "When the Palestinians signed the Oslo II agreement, they promised to "ensure free access to, respect the ways of worship in, and not make any changes to, the Jewish holy sites" on land given up by Israel. [They made the same promise in the Gaza-Jericho accord in 1994 and the Hebron accord in 1997.] Among the listed sites: the venerable "Peace Upon Israel" (shalom al yisrael) synagogue in Jericho and the yeshiva at Joseph's Tomb in Nablus. Today, neither exists. In October, Palestinians burned down the synagogue. They smashed Joseph's Tomb to rubble and trampled its holy books, and announced that a mosque would be built on the site. [3] (http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_1991to_now_oslo_accords_2.php)
American civil courts
In my opinion, the goings on in American civil courts are utterly irrelevant to the topic of this page. I'm only not deleting that section because I have enough on my hands at the moment. Sooner or later, it is gone. Same with the same story in Hamas. --Zero 11:14, 16 Jul 2004 (UTC)
- Verdicts against the PA are relevant, since the court found the PA guilty in providing safe haven to Hamas and Fatah's terrorist groups. MathKnight 10:11, 27 Jul 2004 (UTC)
- So if a court in Egypt or Jordan finds Israel guilty of killing civilians, you won't mind including it on this page?
- Hamas is not a state, but a terror organization, and as such, the US courts has legal right to confiscate Hamas founds.
- Also, Israeli court have still judicial sovereignity over the PA (hence Palestinians can appeal to Israeli court) and the legal right to confiscate money. The PA does not yet have a state of a state (pun not intended).
- Egyptian and Jordanian courts have no judicial sovereignity over Israel.
- These are undisputed facts and should be stated in this article - since a major claim against the PA is that it harbours terrorism.
- MathKnight 16:11, 27 Jul 2004 (UTC)
I have removed the sentence in the lead section blatantly questioning the legitimacy of the Police Force. This is not to say that I agree or disagree with the terming of the Force as a "para-military" organization; however, I would not head an article about the United States with complaints about the international legality of actions by the U.S. Army, and these accusations are likewise inappropriate.
I understand that Palestine is subject to heated debate and argument; however, Wikipedia articles are not the place to foster such debate.
- The statements seemed well supported by the footnotes and links. While the information is valid, do you think it belongs somewhere else? Jayjg | (Talk) 04:04, 20 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Regarding the sentence about the Police Force: yes, I do think it should be moved somewhere else, to an area that deals with Palestinian military matters. As I said before, it does not belong in the intro. As I sad to you previously, though, "If you do not want your writing to be edited mercilessly and redistributed at will, do not submit it."
- If you think something is in the wrong place, then deleting it is not the thing to do. Perhaps you should suggest a better place for it. Jayjg (talk) 23:45, 29 Jan 2005 (UTC)
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