Talk:People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals - Definition and Overview

Controversial History

Looking at recent history, it appears there may be some controversy concerning how well PETA and there tactics are accepted by other animal rights groups. Is this worth exploring? Can it be documented in a neutral way (assuming such controversy exists; I don't know)? Wesley

I don't think this is controversial, frankly. Many other groups have criticized PETA's frivolous style, their paternalistic attitude towards other cultures, and their use of female nudity to "sell" the animal rights message. A lot of this stems from the intersection of animal-rights activism with other forms of activism (something PETA seems to eschew), but it is NOT out of thin air that I wrote this. Graft

PETA seems to eschew other activism publicly, but maybe not privately. A couple of weeks ago there were news reports that PETA had been paying legal fees for the defense of various ELF members. Some people were saying PETA's non-profit status should be revoked because of this. -q

Let's please try to put some info on this (with good references) into the article itself. Thanks.

Why has the word dishonest been singled out for special NPOV documentation requirements? Eloquence, for example, at 06:29 Jan 26, 2003, says "sorry, but if you say 'dishonest' you have to back that up)." Amazingly, Eloquence does not mind the undocumented use of offensive and unethical, however.

I merely stated, as is the policy here, the opinion of some people when I wrote dishonest. Can Eloquence prove me wrong? Back up his or her unqualified editing?

C'mon, Eloquence. Censor everyone or censor no one! Isn't that what NPOV means?

1. There's no need to put your complaint both on my talk page and on the article's talk page. Choose either one. Now I have to respond twice.
2. The statement that PETA is dishonest is, in my understanding, not one that is frequently leveled against them. I would like to see some references for that statement (not that they are dishonest, but that people say that about them, and in which frequency). The other parts of the article seem OK to me. --Eloquence 15:45 Jan 26, 2003 (UTC)

"seem OK to me"?

What a POV argument!!!!

but Eloquence, as always, doesn't care.

Damn! I should so leave this stupidity alone! Ignorant people are always the most persistant!

You don't understand what NPOV means, Arthur. Please read the related pages again. --Eloquence 21:47 Jan 26, 2003 (UTC)

And yet, Eloquence has ENFORCED HIS OR HER VIEW here at wikipidia. Others (me, for example) have not. Oh. I should quit this debate with the ignorant. Hey Yo! Dude! Go look at the PETA page. Is my edit the last? No! Yours is! Because you insist that your POV is correct, while I do not!

Arthur 22:04 Jan 26, 2003 (UTC)

What is my "POV" again, Arthur? --Eloquence 22:44 Jan 26, 2003 (UTC)

suicide bombing

Jewish groups have also been upset at PETA for their stance on suicide-bombings against Jews in the State of Israel. Please can this be expanded upon- what is their stance on this issue? (referenced if possible) Thanks quercus robur 12:09, 20 Oct 2003 (UTC)

Here's what he's referring to: http://www.ananova.com/news/story/sm_748025.html and http://www.peta.org/feat/arafat/ -- Axlrosen 15:30, 20 Oct 2003 (UTC)

Thanks, it's clear now. Jeez these folk sure know how to shoot themselves in the foot.... quercus robur 22:22, 20 Oct 2003 (UTC)

disambiguation block

I think the disambig block belongs at the top- but I'm not prepared to go to war over it- in the unlikely event that I should be searching for peta and accidentally type in PETA (not that unlikely that I should do the latter -I often search in lower case, others might in upper case- but unlikely that I would want to know anything about mathematics :-) ), I'd come to the page on People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals and think, 'hmm, nothing on wikipedia about these big numbers I was hoping to find out about', and wouldn't bother wading through an article I wasn't interested in on the off-chance there might be a disambiguation link at the bottom. I really can't see why it's a problem to have the disambig at the top, but perhaps I'm missing something? quercus robur 22:24, 20 Oct 2003 (UTC)

"Animal holocaust"

ADL vs PETA

Nothing POV about attributing a particular POV to a noteworthy commentator -- Netesq

(Discussing here rather than starting an edit war.) That's not necessarily the case. NPOV dispute says:

There are many ways that an article can fail to be NPOV:

• The article can simply be biased, and express viewpoints as facts.
• While all facts might be presented fairly, the very selection (and omission) of facts can make an article biased.
• Some viewpoints, although not presented as facts, can be given undue attention and space compared to others.
• The text and manner of writing can insinuate that one viewpoint is more correct than another.
• The subject or title of the article can imply a particular point of view.

I think points 3 and 4 apply here. IMO stating the position of the ADL is fine, but actually quoting the strong language from their press release goes too far.

Axlrosen 19:25, 18 Oct 2003 (UTC)

Greetings, Axlrosen. It is highly unlikely that you and I will have an edit war regarding this issue, as I was not the one to introduce the text in question, and my interest in the content of this article is very marginal. In any event, I think that point 3 is much more relevant than point 4. To wit, quoting the ADL's press release may give "undue attention and space" to the ADL's position. At the same time, I think the ADL deserves equal time regarding PETA by virtue of the fact that PETA has taken the highly controversial position of attempting to equate the inhumane treatment of animals with the Holocaust. PETA's position is a fringe position, and the vast majority of Jews who are not themselves PETA activists find this position extremely offensive. In other words, in the view of most Jews, it is PETA that has gone too far. -- NetEsq 20:59, 18 Oct 2003 (UTC)

Greetings to you, NetEsq. My response to your comments is that I don't think the concept of "equal time" would apply to quoting ADL's press release, unless we also showed PETA's actual ads. We describe PETA's ads, then we describe ADL's response, but if we then proceed to actually quote ADL's response, then we're not giving them equal time, we're giving them extra time (i.e. we're letting ADL have its say in the matter but not PETA). Axlrosen 01:51, 19 Oct 2003 (UTC)

So, either we add the actual content of PETA's ads, or we summarize ADL's response. Point well taken. -- NetEsq 06:32, 19 Oct 2003 (UTC)

Ah, like so many others here, Axel believes that the way to achieve NPOV is not to make this a better and more comprehensive encyclopedia, but to cut out material until one achieves some kind of balance. What nonsense. This isn't about NPOV. Axel is just minimizing a viewpoint he doesn't want to see in print. RK 16:23, Oct 19, 2003 (UTC)

No need to get huffy. I'm OK with your version. BTW which viewpoint is it that you claim that I don't want to see in print? And why are you not giving me the benefit of the doubt, that maybe I just want to see a balanced article? Axlrosen 17:07, 19 Oct 2003 (UTC)

Apparently you have not encountered RK's frequent allegations that Wikipedia has a systemic anti-Semitic bias. This particular accusation against you, groundless as it is, is actually one of RK's most coherent and diplomatic attempts at engaging in a dialogue with someone who does not agree with his highly subjective POV. Apparently RK believes that the way to eliminate anti-Semitism at Wikipedia is to accuse every Wikipedian of "minimizing a viewpoint he doesn't want to see in print." "What nonsense. This isn't about NPOV." This is about RK's POV. -- NetEsq 18:07, 19 Oct 2003 (UTC)

I did not say that this was anti-Semitic. Rather, I said that like so many others here...he believes that the way to achieve NPOV is not to make this a better and more comprehensive encyclopedia, but to cut out material until one achieves some kind of balance. I have see this stance time and again; people spend time describing subject X, and only a little time describing subject Y. Then someone comes along and cuts out material on subject X to give "equal time" to both subjects, because that their interpretation of NPOV. However, this misses the point; Wikipedia is an evolving work in progress that needs more material on just about every issue. RK 19:49, Oct 19, 2003 (UTC)

When people cut to make what they see as NPOV balance, this seems to be because they misunderstand NPOV, or are embarassed by a view that they do not want to see. For me, I take the opposite tack, and add material to try and give perspective and balance. I even do so on subjects that cause me personal pain, and which could make my own position look bad. For example, consider my recent additions on the chosen people article, which present Jewish viewpoints that I not only disagree with, but which I think can make Jewish groups look very bad, even if most Jews don't have such views. I felt that NPOV was best achieved by presenting all points of view (hopefully, in the historical context), even though these viewpoints were a rejection of what I believe. RK 19:49, Oct 19, 2003 (UTC)

Perhaps I was too subtle in stating that there are two ways to resolve a good faith NPOV dispute -- i.e., removing content and adding content. I agree with your [RK's] position, set forth above, in re the best way to achieve NPOV balance. Nonetheless, you were hasty in attributing questionable motives to Axlrosen's good faith edit, an edit which I had already reverted in the hopes of avoiding an accusation of bad faith like the one that you made. IMHO, Axlrosen correctly "edited boldly," then correctly chose to engage in Talk page discourse rather than reinstating his previous edit. You responded to Axlrosen's good faith actions by asserting, in bad faith, "What nonsense. This isn't about NPOV. Axel is just minimizing a viewpoint he doesn't want to see in print." -- NetEsq 21:07, 19 Oct 2003 (UTC)

This paragraph belongs on the ADL page...not here:

Many Jewish groups, including the Anti-Defamation League (ADL) has attacked this practice as "abhorrent." A recent press release from the ADL states that "PETA's effort to seek approval for their Holocaust on Your Plate campaign is outrageous, offensive and takes chutzpah to new heights. Rather than deepen our revulsion against what the Nazis did to the Jews, the project will undermine the struggle to understand the Holocaust and to find ways to make sure such catastrophes never happen again."

This link clearly shows my view on the subject: http://www.iowastatedaily.com/vnews/display.v/ART/2002/11/08/3dcb5a8331280?in_archive=1 Lirath Q. Pynnor

I agree. I've moved it to the article on the ADL, for the folks who look after that article to do with as they will. Martin 20:56, 20 Oct 2003 (UTC)

I disagree; you misunderstand the Wikipedia policy on this issue. Nearly all groups discussed on Wikipedia include some criticisms of said groups' controversial positions. This isn't just true for PETA, but all political, religious, social, environmental and advocacy groups. RK 19:49, Oct 19, 2003 (UTC)

You often have opposing point of views all over an article because you have two editors who want to insert their own point of view and the only way to do that without an edit war is to agree to put both in there somehow. When the real best practice would be to just state the fact with neither POV.

-- "Bill Clinton did this good thing but some think it was bad. He also did this bad thing that some think was not so bad." as opposed to "Bill Clinton did this, and then did this." 24.144.15.243 20:06, 19 Oct 2003 (UTC)

I wholeheartedly disagree with Martin and Lir. PETA has taken particularly controversial fringe positions on various issues that are near and dear to many Jews, and the ADL's response to the "Holocaust on Your Plate Campaign" is highly representative of mainstream Jewish views on this particular issue. As such, the ADL deserves equal time on this issue in the context of the present article, whereas removing both sides of the debate from the article is counterproductive. -- NetEsq 23:50, 20 Oct 2003 (UTC)

The ADL does not receive equal attention; because, this is not an article about the "Holocaust on Your Plate Campaign"; this is an article about PETA. The ADL's opinion of PETA, while worth mentioning, should not be discussed in full at this page. Lirath Q. Pynnor

Well, I can see your position, NetEsq. I think it's rather stating the obvious to include the reasons of either side: you'd be better off linking to Godwin's law and going home. Still, if we have either we should have both, I guess. Martin 18:16, 21 Oct 2003 (UTC)

I don't know that Godwin's law applies per se. Many groups may have their own commentary on genocide, ethnic cleansing, fascism, etc., but commentary on the Holocaust is primarily the province of Jewish groups, notwithstanding the fact that other disfavored groups were also targeted by Hitler's regime and millions of people who were *NOT* Jewish died fighting it. Indeed, even PETA recognizes the Holocaust as a peculiarly Jewish issue, appealing to the authority of a Jewish Nobel laureate in positing a moral equivalency between the politically motivated genocide of Jews attempted by Hitler's regime and the slaughter of animals for food. In this context, Godwin's law has very little relevance. -- NetEsq 19:16, 21 Oct 2003 (UTC)

We do not need to go into detail, regarding the ADL's view of PETA. The ADL has its own page, and in that page it is appropriate to discuss all of the ADL's views. It is enough to note here that the ADL has a negative view of PETA's "animal holocaust" campaign -- any further specifics belong on the ADL page. Lirath Q. Pynnor

---

Adam, aka , aka Pizza Puzzle, is again censoring opinions that he disagrees with, and is making edits at the rate of one a minute. He/She (it keeps changing its mind) is back to the old anti-consensus habits which got him/her banned in the first place. This is not a good sign. RK 02:25, Oct 21, 2003 (UTC)

I have no idea what RK is going on about. I moved the ADL quote below the description of PETA's campaign; not only should the ADL not be given such attention here; but PETA's campaign should be mentioned BEFORE the ADL criticism. Lirath Q. Pynnor

False. You are deleting text. And it now has been restored. RK 02:36, Oct 21, 2003 (UTC)

What text? I am not aware of any text which I have deleted. Lirath Q. Pynnor

Heh, on close examination I realize that RKs version lacks a paragraph -- apparently he is the one deleting text. Lirath Q. Pynnor

The PETA page as it currently stands is not from a NPOV. I know very little about PETA and all I see on this page is what is wrong with it. I see nothing about its goals or mandate. I see nothing about its history and formation. Those are things I expect to see in an encyclopedia article. Instead I see a scathing critique of the group without any mention of what it is that is being critisized. I look forward to when these edit wars are sorted out and I can get some actual information about PETA. --zandperl 02:43, 21 Oct 2003 (UTC)

Well it does say that Pamela Anderson supports them- what more do you need??? quercus robur ;-)

Feel free to delete the ADL quotes, they don't belong here. Lirath Q. Pynnor

Lir, please do not include entire web pages as a quote. That is out of line; it is certainly a violation of our NPOV policy, and maybe a copyright violation as well. Please do not falsely accuse other people of censorship when they refuse to allow you to quote such huge gobs of text. This is not censorship; is merely standard Wikipedia editorial practice in all of our articles. As it is, the shorter quote from PETA here is still huge. RK 00:40, Oct 26, 2003 (UTC)

I have no idea what you are talking about. Lirath Q. Pynnor

A couple of days ago someone added an entire web page from PETA on the "animal holocaust" issue. I edited this material down, somewhat, but still left a fairly large quote. In response, you immediately reverted my edit, and accused me of censorhip. Check the page history of the main article. RK 01:09, Oct 26, 2003 (UTC)

RK, I added the large quote, not Lir, on 18:00, 21 Oct 2003. Lir has not edited the article since then. Check the page history of the main article. Martin 11:31, 26 Oct 2003 (UTC)

Well, thats probably because you didn't take the time to explain why you were removing the information. Lirath Q. Pynnor

Zandperl's definitely got a point. Seems like the entire article is devoted to nothing but proof of controversiality, with agenda that this proves PETA bad. John Brown in the Civil War got argued both ways too; was he a bomb-heaver, or martyr? The one thing you don't get much out of here is a sense of info about PETA from a PETA perspective. If they employ Holocaust comparisons, why? Not only is one PETA person's declaration binding on all members, I don't think you have to value all animal lives at exact par with all human lives in order to believe animal lives have intrinsic value, killing or reducing to inanimate means to your will is wrong, suffering is wrong, boxcar herding is wrong, inflicting pain alive is wrong, etc. Definitely needs a little balance and devil's advocacy, imho. Chris Rodgers 07:38, 27 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Boy, after reading some of the comments above, this is going to seem positively tame. :-)

"PETA supporters say that the organization has been able to protect the lives of many animals, including closing the largest horse slaughterhouse in the nation" - which nation? I'd guess the U.S., since that's where PETA's based, but I don't want to make assumptions. -- Ortonmc 02:45, 7 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Sugarcoating PETA

The last few changes are bascially a sugarcoat, placing pro peta first, and softening critisams and putting them last. I am posting my intention to fix this here now to avoid a revert war. Dominick 20:53, 4 May 2004 (UTC)

Criticism should go last, the article is about PETA. Also, saying that something is sugarcoated implies that there is an icky taste to require sugarcoating, which is not neutral. Looking at the edit history [of this article] has been adding much valid content, and created People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals#Criticism of PETA for you to notice. Hyacinth 21:34, 4 May 2004 (UTC)

Explain this POV hack job: Center for Consumer Freedom Dominick 21:58, 4 May 2004 (UTC)

Instead of waiting for my explination, why don't you just edit. Hyacinth 22:29, 4 May 2004 (UTC)

Dominick, I hope you can remaind calm about this -- I went to that article and saw nothing that looked horribly biased, but then I don't know the topic. What needs changing? Furthermore, I think this article is laid out exactly as Wikipedian standards would suggest -- it establishes who PETA are and what they do, and then explains the criticisms. What do you think is wrong? Can you copy specific passages here that need fixing? I think people would be more willing to discuss possible changes with you if you were ready to talk things over here (rather than make unilateral changes, which it appears that you are threatening). That's just my perspective. I'm sure you do have some important criticisms of the article (most articles here need work of some kind), and I'm interested to hear what they are. Jwrosenzweig 22:37, 4 May 2004 (UTC)

POV on talk pages is OK. If Dominick thinks we are "sugarcoating" PETA, that means he thinks we are downplaying something important. I'd like to know what that is.--Eloquence* 23:51, May 4, 2004 (UTC)

That is correct. PoV should be out here, I don't want my own personal view to dominate the topic of PETA. I would prefer that my fellow Wikipedians know how much I think an original article falls short. First, I think by stating the claims that this organization makes in the Wiki gives them a free channel to present thier views. Second, this isn't a place to present them in a good light. This isn't a PR vehice, they have some real strong connections to ELF terrorists, and have had people accused of violent crime on the payroll. TO close this too long comment, (sorry folks), Jwrosenzweig, I posted here to discuss this, and did not make a single "unilateral" change. The changes a departure from the original article, and were "unilateral" IMHO. I would like this to be a complete treatment of PETA, which would not just look like a pamphlet. Every comment she softened was a anti-PETA comment. Every thing she highlighted was pro-PETA. Did I answer you Eloquence? Dominick 03:16, 5 May 2004 (UTC)

I am new to Wikipedia, and was unaware that it was necessary to get into a discussion on the talk page before adding factual information to expand an article. I haven't removed any of the criticism of PETA, just moved it to its own section. I agree that there should be more on their links to ELF, etc. There is still a lot of work that needs to be done on this page. Rosemary Amey 14:22, 5 May 2004 (UTC)

First, welcome to WIkipedia. We cooperate to write articles, and people write about what they care about. I worry that people unknowingly put PoV into those organizations they are sentimental about. I didn't like your changes, which were widespread, and I complained here to get a better perspective and try to think through how to improve the PoV and empasize facts I think are objective and important. Unfortunatly, some critics are just "feces tossers" who edit and leave. I would prefer to make certain this article and the Center for Consumer Freedom one reflect NPOV. I have a PoV, I admit, I am a fur wearing, meat eating sportsman. :-) I would prefer to rise above the label and do a decent fact based job. Dominick 15:19, 5 May 2004 (UTC)

I tried to keep an NPOV in the parts I added, e.g. when I added the Jesus is a Vegetarian campaign, I mentioned that most Christian leaders disagree with PETA's claims. The CCF stub needs a lot of work, obviously. Go for it. Rosemary Amey 17:47, 5 May 2004 (UTC)

It's not necessary to get in a discussion on a talk page just to change an article. Usually the discussion on the talk page happens after the changes, when someone disagrees with the changes, and you need to decide what to do with it. :) - Fennec 15:24, May 5, 2004 (UTC)

Reality check

Checking one of Rosemaryamey's edits, 13:01, 4 May 2004, I find that she in no way altered the text so as to soften criticism. In fact, about the only real change besides sorting paragraphs I can find is the de-linking of chutzpah. Similarly her first edit to the article only rearranged paragraphs and added slightly more information. She herself added an article and a link to a group which is critical of PETA, Center for Consumer Freedom. Criticisms of the article may be entirely correct, but they have always been there, are not because of recent changes, and not because of Rosemaryamey. Hyacinth 17:13, 5 May 2004 (UTC)

Thanks for the support, Hyacinth. If anyone is wondering, I delinked chutzpah because there was no article to link to and also "chutzpah" seems like a definition that belongs in a dictionary rather than an encyclopedia. Rosemary Amey 17:47, 5 May 2004 (UTC)

Disappearing links

I was wondering if the anonymous users who removed the links to Peta Sucks and Center for Consumer Freedom could explain their reasoning. Rosemary Amey 00:11, 18 May 2004 (UTC)

It was going on before. Some anonymous users will continue to delete links. I think just because someone is anonymous, doesn't disqualify them from editing, but unfortunatly, some vandals are anonymous. Links both ways belong here. Censorship stinks! Dominick 10:04, 18 May 2004 (UTC)

campaigns of violence against people

Listed in one of the links

" It gave $7,500 to Fran Stephanie Trutt, who tried to murder the president of a medical laboratory. It gave $5,000 to Josh Harper, who attacked Native Americans on a whale hunt by throwing smoke bombs, shooting flares, and spraying their faces with chemical fire extinguishers." http://activistcash.com/organization_blackeye.cfm/oid/21

Peta has of payed legal fees for people arrested in conjunction with ALF "raids". There is a stong link there. The ALF and ELF are wanted in acts of arson and criminal vandalism.[1] (http://cbs5.com/news/bcn/2003/03/23/n/HeadlineNews/Update:_Petaluma_Meat_Plant_Fire_Deemed_Arson.html) Arson constitutes depraved indifference, since you can't be sure that nobody is in the building. Dominick 12:02, 21 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Yikes. Thanks, Dominick. Rosemary Amey 17:15, 22 Jun 2004 (UTC)

PETA Does Not Have 800,000 Members

PETA's claim to have 800,000 members is bogus. PETA is incorporated, in fact, such that there are only a handful of members in order to avoid the risk of having an outside group take the organization over as PETA itself did to at least one animal rights organization.

The 400,000 or 800,000 members claim appears to be made up out of thin air. A running hypothesis is that they likely count anyone who has ever donated to them as members.

Are these just allegations or do you have anything to back this up with? Allot of non-profits work like this. PETA is one of many top down (control) private non-profits.--Steele 05:12, 11 Nov 2004 (UTC)

PETA

Would it be appropriate to put into the article that critics of PETA often mockingly claim it stands for "People Eating Tasty Animals"?

That joke is many years old. I don't see why it is relevant to contributing anything meaningful to this article.--Steele 05:14, 11 Nov 2004 (UTC)

My 2 cents, Is there really any fairness in here?

This seems more like a hit piece on PETA masquerading as an Encyclopedia article. It is very easy to pretend to be "Fair and Balanced"™ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fox_News#Allegations_of_bias) while pushing an agenda. It is accomplished by putting facts in you like and leaving out those that you don’t. Because of this omission of the truth, it comes across as NPOV to the average user but it shapes misinformed views of the organization in that persons mind. After reading this article any user will come out with a terribly negative view of this group.

I am not trying to accuse anyone here of pushing an agenda because I think the issue is much more complicated then that. It is much easier to dig up dirt on this group then it is to verify or discredit it. After all, PETA and the AR movements opponents are some of the biggest corporations in the world and all the power that comes with it sure does have some influence. Like friends in the major media who produce hit pieces, PR firms and front groups. It is allot easier to get your message out to the public compared to a group with very limited funds and media access. Basically, flooding the public with disinformation, which I see where ever I go on the internet.

This is already on top of a movement that is very complex and that the general public has little to no understanding of. This means the system stacks against them in an age of media sound bites and quick segments that favor the status quo. Not only that but lets not forget the Right Wing echo chambers that, even though AR is neither a left or right, likes to pick on as part of the liberal scapegoats or left wing conspiracy.

Comparison with other organisations' Wikipedia pages

Let’s look at some of the problems and compare this to the other organizations out there and on wiki. How about the NRA (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Rifle_Association), NAACP (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NAACP), Greenpeace (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greenpeace), [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Republican_Party Republican Party], [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Democratic_Party Democratic Party], KKK (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ku_Klux_Klan), Neo-Nazi’s (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neo-Nazi), NAMBLA (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_American_Man-Boy_Love_Association) and the ACLU (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ACLU)?

Size of complaints:

• PETA (1/2): before I even get half way there are critics and complaints until the end of the article.
• (worst case senerio) ACLU (1/5): for defense of various unpopular groups and strong church and state separation.
• Greenpeace (1/12): Funny, this organization is the closest to PETA in its tactics.
• NRA(1/12): Note these are bulleted and not detailed criticism like the others.
• Republican Party(NA): none
• Democratic Party(NA): one link at the end
• NAACP(1/28): very mild ones at that
• KKK, neo-Nazi’s, NAMBLA(NA): no criticism sections at all?

Interesting how you can learn more about what’s “wrong” with PETA then what they actually stand for. I also noticed how the link section is 11 to 6 against PETA. Funny, since PETA owns 114 different webpages.

Interesting how the only thing about PETAs executive director Bruce Fredric is not his success against corporate giants like McDonald’s, his famous “Got Beer” Campaign, not his life of community service, the fact that he is a devout Christian or even that he was one of the top 10 candidates for [http://www.sho.com/site/video/right.do?video=/172/2004/bruce_friedrich&player=WMP&speed=hi&seriesid=&episodeid=&include=172_profiles

Showtime’s American Candidate] but his misquoted rant at a speech to fellow animal rights activist.

“Sponsorship of terrorism” isn’t POV, it is libel. That is the first thing that needs to be removed. PETA has never sponsored a “campaign of violence” against anyone. Animal Rights is a nonviolent movement, humans are after all animals so the very idea would be hypocritical not to mention counterproductive. Consumer Freedom isn’t anything close to a real source as they are just a partisan hack job for the corporations that make money off the exploitation of animals in addition to the many other things they do. The money given to Rodney was to pay his legal fees. That is legal, remember? The money sent to the “Earth Liberation Front” didn’t go to terrorist. That is the Earth Liberation Fronts Press office which maintains a webpage, support group and creates a magazine. That is also legal. The FBI would shut down PETA in a heartbeat if they ever did anything wrong.

the ALF and the ELF were described as a "serious terrorist threat" by James F. Jarboe, Domestic Terrorism Section Chief, Counterterrorism Division, Federal Bureau of Investigation.Geni 09:44, 11 Nov 2004 (UTC)

ALF and ELF do not actually exist, there is no centralize organization or coordination. To be an ALF member all you have to do is liberate animals from places of abuse, inflict economic damage to those who profit, and/or reveal the horror and atrocities committed against animals behind locked doors. The way it works is anonymous people carry out these actions and send proof of it (video or newspaper clippings) to the ALF Press office (which does not keep any contact information.) The ALF press office, making sure the activist carried out the actions under ALF guidelines (must be a vegetarian/vegan and take all necessary precautions against harming any animal, human or non-human) and if they did, the Press office will claim responsibility. The money that PETA sent was to a self appointed PR/media relations firm that represents (but doesn't know) the people who carry out actions under the concept of ALF. That is what the ALF Press office is. There isn't any way to "support ALF" unless you are the one carrying out the action--Steele 21:00, 11 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I found this in the main article "I think it would be great if all of the fast-food outlets, slaughterhouses, these laboratories, and the banks that fund them, exploded tomorrow." That could be construed as inciting people to commit acts of violence against places that a person does not agree with. One thing I found was 18 U.S.C. § 1951 - Interference with commerce by threats or violence. See here (http://www.capdefnet.org/oldweb/oldindexfiles/18_usc_1951.htm) for the text of the stature.

JesseG 03:11, Jan 1, 2005 (UTC)

I am not sure how they consider it “sexism” when the celebrities volunteer and they use both men and women for their campaigns. “Holocaust on your plate” section doesn’t talk about how the campaign was run by a Jew who lost family members in the Holocaust or that it was funded by a Jewish philanthropist who has spent the last 25 years working with prominent Jewish organizations that highlight the atrocities that took place during the Holocaust. Something I wouldn’t be able to back up if it wasn’t for the “Yahoo cache” and no thanks to the big media. Please read the [http://216.109.117.135/search/cache?p=holocaust+on+your+plate&sm=Yahoo%21+Search&toggle=1&ei=UTF-8&vst=0&vs=www.masskilling.com&dups=1&u=www.masskilling.com/lettocomm.asp&w=holocaust+plate&d=4E747B3A6D&icp=1&.intl=us

fallowing] (you may have to highlight the text with your mouse to see it.) 

PETA also can’t take sides on issues outside of the Animal Rights movement. So of course, condemning suicide bombing in her letter to Yasser Arafat could alienate the Muslim presence they also try to reach (http://www.petatv.com/tvpopup/Prefs.asp?video=al_jazeera). What is the point of the domain name dispute? It looks like the only reason it was put up was for the old “people eating tasty animals” joke. I don’t see any good reasons why it would be up there, so it seems to be just more pointless criticism.

Last but not least, one thing that is missing is a statement explaining why they always use these controversial tactics. Did anyone here think that the people who read this article might have a better understanding of why PETA does these things if they had read this (http://www.askcarla.com/answers.asp?QuestionandanswerID=272)?

Since I am new to this whole “wiki” thing and the fact that I am a card carrying member of the group I will let others edit the article first if they do so within a reasonable amount of time. Please feel free to tell me what you think or correct me if you feel I am wrong. Sorry for the ranting but this has made me frustrated.

--Steele 09:17, 11 Nov 2004 (UTC)

The article is an outrage. It's just a hatchet job.Simon d 02:06, 6 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Then it's your duty as a member to do something about it. If you want someone else to do something, be more specific, but if you want it done right, do it yourself.--Mylon 17:12, 15 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Major overhaul for NPOV.

This article is in major need of restructuring. Tensions seemed high so I thought I'd float some ideas here before making changes myself.

First, clearly and concisely, at the beginning of the article, state PETA's own claimed goals. No annotation is needed. Seccond, defer the animal rights controversy to the animal rights page. Use PETA's distinction of animal rights vs. animal welfare and a link to the animal rights page. Third, create a new page for the PETA/ADL debate; i.e., defer all of the anti-semitism acuasations to their own page and include a prominent link here. Fourth, state criticisms and PETA positions without judgemental language. Fifth, include a reference to monies given to convicted arsonists, etc.

It would be nice to have more factual/background/history information on the group. Look at the greenpeace or ACLU articles for formatting examples. I am sensitive to the argument that PETA is fundamentally different in both ideology and tactics from advocacy groups such as greenpeace, but that is a conclusion that in informed reader can reach on his or her own. Most importantly, the flow of the article isn't very good.

--Selket 18:35, 16 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Timeline of PETA history

Any way we can incorporate this info into this article, or another specialized article, perhaps Timeline of PETA History? See [2] (http://www.rotten.com/library/culture/peta/). 205.217.105.2 17:54, 25 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Jesus was not a vegan

"And while they yet believed not for joy, and wondered, he said unto them, Have ye here any meat? And they gave him a piece of a broiled fish, and of an honeycomb. And he took [it], and did eat before them." - Luke 24:41-43 205.217.105.2 17:54, 25 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Is this comment related to the article? Hyacinth 22:05, 25 Jan 2005 (UTC)

[3] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People_for_the_Ethical_Treatment_of_Animals#Jesus_was_a_Vegetarian) — Nathanlarson32767 (Talk) 00:33, 26 Jan 2005 (UTC)

In what way is your opinion that Jesus was not a vegan related to the article? Hyacinth 18:39, 31 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Too much criticism

Since Wikipedia is not the place to debate whether a group is right or wrong, it seems like there is far too much criticism of PETA on this page, as others have pointed out. Do we really need a criticism section on several individual campaigns, so that they can be individually criticised? We could condense the criticisms down to a paragraph, with references to webpages that conduct in-depth criticisms. Or the "Campaigns for a Vegan Diet" section already has a line of criticism after each campaign - isn't this sufficient? This isn't the place to go into detail about criticisms and counter-criticisms, as otherwise Wikipedia would just turn into a giant debating forum. --Raye 14:06, 31 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Since one of the main features of PETA is those contivesal campains probably. Do you have evidence to support your final assertion?Geni 14:42, 31 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Wikipedia is not a soapbox or debating forum [4] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:What_Wikipedia_is_not#Wikipedia_is_not_a_soapbox), it's an encyclopedia. If we allowed debates here the situation would get out of hand - this page would say "Peta did A. critics say this is wrong because of B. Peta say that B is wrong because of C. Critics say that C is wrong because of D . . . " and so on forever. We do need important criticisms to be noted, but we can't allow this to get out of hand. This is difficult to resolve I admit, but the amount of criticism on this page certainly seems disproportionate, as others have also noted. If you look at the "Comparison with other organisation's Wikipedia pages" above, the difference is striking. --83.216.154.56 19:01, 31 Jan 2005 (UTC)

The article is already listed as disputed, and the edit history shows many comments regarding campaigns.

The article's title and subject is PETA. Perhaps the article is of sufficient length now that any criticism of specific PETA campaigns belongs on articles devoted to those campaigns. This also cuts down on the overabundance of debate as issues may be settled on seperate articles talk pages and described more sublty and in greater length than allowed on this article. Hyacinth 19:13, 31 Jan 2005 (UTC)

That sounds good, but do the campaigns really warrant their own pages? I'm not sure what the guidlines are for what deserves its own page, maybe you are right and they do warrant individual pages. But also, if we deleted the campaigns from this page then there would be very little on this page! However, perhaps the most contraversial ones at least warrant their own page (I'm thinking of the Holocaust on your Plate campaign . . .) --83.216.154.56 20:05, 31 Jan 2005 (UTC)