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Archive 1
Archive 2
jewish religions cleanup
IZAK added alot of "religions" under the jewish heading, probably for completeness. Many are not religions even under the very liberal definition of religion used for this page. I am eventually going to remove many of the additions, I am just busy that the moment. I am saying this to anyone who might help and IZAK who might want to make a rebuttal. 19:44, 14 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Which religions are LHP?
Satanism, Setianism & Dragon Rouge are LHP.
The IOT definitly isn't "Is Chaos Magick Left Hand Path? No, of course not. Is it Right Hand Path? No, of course not. Chaos Magick is neutral. One can practice Chaos Magick and walk either the LHP or the RHP or both. As such, either path can be followed within Chaos Magick, but a path should be taken. Remaining neutral is meaningless, and essentially is just an excuse to do nothing."
source: Japanese IOT http://www.chaosmagic.com/archives/lhprhp/index.shtml
--> I will change this
In my opionion Thelema isn't LHP as well. Only the Typhonoian OTO, which distancend itself from Thelema a bit is LHP. Don't know how to make it clear to the reader, so I wait for suggestions...
- The definition of LHP for the purposes of this page is Religions which value the spiritual advancement of the self over other goals. This is clearly presented under the title heading. You are misunderstanding LHP and Evil, they are not the same. Your evidence presented does the same thing. We are not considering LHP religions to be evil, just ones that are self-serving. Occult groups, especially ones that practice magic, would constitute religions in accordance with the liberal definition of religion used here. --The Sunborn 02:25, 4 Dec 2004 (UTC)
- Of course LHP isn't "evil"! The definition of the LHP is "religions, which aim to become a entity seperated from the universe, ie a god" --> egoism, RHP is "religions which try to become one with a goo or sth similar (nirvana)" --> altruism.
Neither the IOT, nor the OST, nor Thelema is LHP. You completly igrnored that is posted an article by the IOT saying it's neither RHP nor LHP, because its Chaos Magic. Aleister Crowley didn't lable Thelema as LHP and the OST isn't neither IMO.
I will give time to answer, and we should get to an agreement. Please describe, why do you label the above named religions as LHP!
PS: the page's def. isn't very good
- Just because a group labels themselves as one thing doesn't mean we should. Just because another group labels group A as not something doesn't mean we should too. It says on the LHP/RHP article that " This usage was popularized by Aleister Crowley, who maintained that his religion, Thelema, was, despite appearances, not of the Left-Hand Path". I argue according to the definition on the LHP/RHP article that LHP is any religion that is not completely altuistic. Thelma which litterally means (by power of) will, is not altruistic because the reliance on an individual's will. Here is a quote from which I come from:
- "The term 'Left-Hand Path' has become an umbrella term of self-designation used by certain contemporary ritual magicians and is usually taken to incorporate practitioners of Thelemic magick (beginning with Aleister Crowley), Tantrik magick, and Chaos Magick [...] The notion of the Left-Hand Path is derived from the Tantric term vama-marga ('left-path'), i.e., the Left-Hand Path in Tantrism. [...] Its usage represents a deliberate attempt by Left-Hand Path magicians to transcend the outmoded and value-laden dichotomy of 'black' versus 'white' magic [...] because it is held to reflect the 'moronic oversimplicity of the Judeo-Xtian distinction between good and evil'"
- "Pagan Pathways" essay on "Left-Hand Path Ritual Magick" by Richard Sutcliffe. (http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/000710698X/vexencrabtree/202-0348059-8811874)
- Please do two things, if you consider contributing more, get an account and sign all your comments on talk pages. --[[User:Sunborn|]] 01:42, 5 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Bahá'í Faith
sunborn, while the Bahá'í Faith seems to come from the Babi faith, Bahá'ís believe that the Bahá'í Faith is an independent religion seperate from the Babi movement. The purpose of the Babi movement, as seen by Bahá'ís, was to come prepare the world for the next religion, the Bahá'í Faith.
All other items in the list are the main group and the divisions below it. The Bahá'í Faith is not a division of the Babi movement. See [1] (http://www.adherents.com/Religions_By_Adherents.html) which shows the Bahá'í Faith as an independent religion.
I would suggest dividing the Bahá'í Faith and Babism into two main level bullets, and have the Orthodox Bahá'í Faith as a subheading of the Bahá'í Faith. -- Navidazizi 05:46 2 Jan, 2005 (UTC)
Also, looking through the history, you wrote "Baha'i faith and orthodox baha'i are EQUAL, they are major sects of a post babist religion that absorbed all (or most) of babism"
This is not true. The purpose of the Babi movement, as written in many of the Bab's writings, was to prepare for the "The One Whom God Will Make Manifest." Baha'u'llah in 1863 claimed he was the one who the Bab had prophesized about. Somewhat, I admit distantly, like Moses telling of the Messiah's coming. Baha'u'llah annulled many of the laws that the Bab wrote in the Persian Bayan. They have different laws and different rituals. The Babi movement and the Bahá'í Faith are completely different religions. At the time that Baha'u'llah claimed his position, some Babis did not accept him, and followed Mirza Yahya; almost none of these 'Azali Babi's' remain.
Another example to seperate the Babi movement and the Bahá'í Faith is that the Bab himself came from a Shayki (Islam) background, and declaring that he was the return of the 12th Imam, but that doesn't make the Babi movement a sect of Islam.
The orthodox Baha'i faith broke apart in 1957 (long after Baha'u'llah declared in 1863) due to a difference of successorship after the Guardian of the Bahá'í Faith passed away. If anything it is a sect of the Bahá'í Faith and definitely not of the Babi movement. There numbers are also quite low (under 2000) -- Navidazizi 05:55 2 Jan, 2005 (UTC)
- Well maybe, however, the differences between the "orthodox Baha'i faith" and the "Baha'i faith" are the same as the differences between Roman Catholicism and say Anglicanism. The list should reflect this. It is possible that Babism is a separate grouping that could be under this same heading. Say the division between Mandeanism and Chrisianity. Mandeans follow John the babtist and call Christ a liar. --The Sunborn
- Ok, how bout something like "Bahá'í" as the main bullet with "Bahá'í Faith" and "Orthodox Bahá'í Faith" as sub-bullets. And then "Babism" as a seperate main level bullet lower down on the list near Mandeanism -- Navidazizi 17:11 2 Jan, 2005 (UTC)
- Very good, I think it would work out lovely. I couldn't think of any way to save it but this is great. --The Sunborn
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