Talk:Secret Gospel of Mark - Definition

Suppressing Content

suppressed the following text, which I have now restored:

According to the letter, the Secret Gospel of Mark was "a more spiritual Gospel for the use of those who were being perfected" in Egypt. Because of the contents of the Secret Gospel, described below, it has been heavily controversial. On one hand, it clears up some inconsistencies in Mark which are all too mysterious, such as the scantily clad man in Mark 14:51-52, and the abrupt transition in Mark 10:46. On the other hand, it has some elements of a fiction: the backstory which explains the existence of the Secret Gospel, the convienient abrupt ending right before the Secret Gospel is explained, and the sole interjection from the Carpocratians that seems to bring the subtext of the Secret Gospel into the clear.

This utterly relevant and neutral text quotes the document being discussed, explains the controversy (vividly expressed by Ashibaka's suppression of all mention of it) and demonstrates that some text is indeed missing from Mark as we have it in the canonic version. When text is suppressed in this manner, it is a sign that more information needs to be added to the entry. Wetman 23:53, 13 Apr 2004 (UTC)

I don't understand this at all. It talks about material being suppressed by Ashibaka and restored by Wetman. But, on the basis of the edit history, the material seems to have been added by Ashibaka and suppressed by Wetman sarban@supanet.com

Don't be misled by "13" (April) and "18" (March). Look at the content and the sequence of these edits in the History... if you have that much empty time. Wetman 20:05, 10 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Random Inserts

"the shortest version of a story is usually the earliest" is a false statement inserted by Anonymous User 198.208.6.35. The link at Page History will give the edit history of this person. I have set this statement into a context that keeps it from being misleading. Check my edit of today.Wetman 23:02, 15 Apr 2004 (UTC)
This person was me. Charlie Turek magician

"The earliest Christian art( 3rd century, this is at least a hundred years after Jesus' time) depicts Jesus holding a wand when performing the miracles of changing water to wine, the multipication of loaves and the raising of Lazarus from the dead. When healing is the miracle, Jesus lays on hands. This art has never been kept in secret." What 3rd century "art" is being referred to here? Is this sheer invention? Wetman 22:57, 31 Jul 2004 (UTC)

See my review of Morton Smith's book Jesus the Magician on Amazon.com. See my other reviews too. Charlie Turek magician charlesturek@comcast.net

I think Peter is the only apostle with a wand.

What's the connection to the text called Secret Gospel of Mark in this? Please enter relevent information in the entry. Saying "see my review " in the Discussion does not identify a work of art of the 3rd century that is being adduced to prove a point. Relevent information means simply information that is relevent to Secret History of Mark, the subject of this entry.Wetman 18:59, 6 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Disputedness

Okay, this article looks rather rough and connected to a certain theological faction. Look at it: does it deserve a "disputed" label? (NB: entered by Anonymous : click on the link to see the other contributions by the Anonymous User!)

Please identify what you consider "rough" and we will make it plain. We're trying only to get the facts straight. What is this unidentified "certain theological faction"? The "disputed" label has been rendered disreputable precisely by its use as a weapon in this fashion, usually by logged-in users. Wetman 18:59, 6 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Jesus the Magician

Anyone interested in entering material on Morton Smith's book Jesus the Magician or on the subject of Jesus as a Hellenistic magician, etc, need only click on the link in the heading and start editing! The subject may be linked in its entry to Secret Gospel of Mark, for aught In know, and to other texts that document a secret history of Jesus as a magician. No need to clutter this Discussion. Wetman 19:04, 6 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Carpocratians

Shouldn't the prologue that Clement has in his letter before he quotes from the Gospel also be mentioned? I.e. his condemning of the claims that the gospel has the terms "naked man with naked man" ("gymnos gymnos" in greek) in it. This puts into context exactly what the gospel was perceived to claim and justify by the Carpocrations, and why Clement quotes the passages to attempt to counter the claim. --81.156.179.151 19:05, 26 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Sexuality

I came to this article after reading a section in the Jesus page. I think we ought to put into the article the conclusions that Morton Smith made (or was claimed to make) about Jesus' Sexuality from the text, and why this lead to his discovery of the text for a long time being very controversial. --81.156.179.151 19:10, 26 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Conclusions that Morton Smith was "claimed to make" don't need encyclopedia treatment, revealing as they are of his detractors' mindset and techniques. A quote from Morton Smith about whatever sexual content might have been in the spiritually transforming experience Jesus was apparently offering is apropos, however. Care to find one? --Wetman 01:32, 27 Oct 2004 (UTC)

There are a few quotable sections on this in Morton Smith's book Discovery and Interpretation of the Secret Gospel of Mark. I am afraid I don't have a copy to hand, or its ISBN number.

I think it is important that some of his detractors complaints also be included (I don't know where to find quotes for these), so that the article shows the level of controversy which surrounded the discovery of the gospel, and why it arose. 217.150.114.18 15:57, 27 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Well, when you have time... --Wetman 16:27, 27 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Cutting apart

I think the article is too long in its present form to be readable. Could it be split into sections, e.g. discovery, content, interpretation?CheeseDreams 20:12, 7 Nov 2004 (UTC)

It is not nearly so long as the entry Pokemon, which may be a more gripping subject. This entry is a connected text on a coherent subject, providing some context. Not everyone is daunted by a couple of thousand words of text. --Wetman 20:24, 7 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Has the original book ever been made available?

As far as I can tell, the original book with the transcriptions was never made available for critical examination, at least through the late 1990's. Therefore, I've added several "alleged"'s to the article.--Johnstone 03:35, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC)

The letter of Clement's has been printed. What "book" is imagining? Don't just sprinkle entries with "alleged," if you are too lazy to look into the subject first. --Wetman 04:10, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC)

In looking into this subject, before editing, I encountered the following at http://www.gnosis.org/library/secm_commentary.htm, which is presently the last external link in the article:

"What Smith then began photographing was a three-page handwritten addition penned into the endpapers of a printed book, Isaac Voss' 1646 edition of the Epistolae genuinae S. Ignatii Martyris. It identified itself as a letter by Clement of the Stromateis, i.e., Clement of Alexandria, the second-century church father well-known for his neo-platonic applications of Christian belief....

"Inevitably a document which is so controversial as Secret Mark will be accused of being a forgery. This is precisely what happened in 1975... Foremost is the lack of the physical manuscript. Smith left the manuscript in the tower at Mar Saba in 1958 and had been working with his set of photographs ever since....

"Quesnell calls into question all of Smith's efforts to date the manuscript to the eighteenth century. Although Smith consulted many paleographic experts, Quesnell feels this information to be useless as compared to a chemical analysis of the ink, and a microscopic examination of the writing. Then he asks the 'unavoidable next question': was the letter of Clement a modern forgery?....

"Quesnell's arguments were still echoed in 1983 by Per Beskow, who wrote that Smith "can only present some mediocre photographs, which do not even cover the entire margins of the manuscript....

"In Thomas Talley's 1982 article on ancient liturgy, he describes his own attempt to physically examine the Secret Mark manuscript. As his is the last word on the physical artifact in question, it is fortuitous to quote him at length: 'My own attempts to see the manuscript in January of 1980 were frustrated, but as witnesses to its existence I can cite the Archimandrite Meliton of the Jerusalem Greek Patriarchate who, after the publication of Smith's work, found the volume at Mar Saba and removed it to the patriarchal library, and the patriarchal librarian, Father Kallistos, who told me that the manuscript (two folios) has been removed from the printed volume and is being repaired.'...

The "book," is the printed volume, Epistolae genuinae S. Ignatii Martyris, specifically the endpapers with the manuscript. It appears that it has never been made available for examination. Can you provide any references that state that it has?--Johnstone 02:00, 10 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Thomas Talley's remarks need to be quoted in the entry, don't they. --Wetman 02:09, 10 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Talley's remarks would be a good addition, as well as statements that:

• the original has not been made available. (My $0.02: Arguments from authority are no substitute for physical analysis.)
• numerous scholars believe that it is likely a forgery, even Smith's professor (Arthur Darby Nock), and [at least one of] his students (Jacob Neusner, who called it "the forgery of the century"), etc.
• Smith's interpretation of the content was and is controversial.

And, of course, the word "alleged" should be inserted where appropriate.--Johnstone 00:56, 11 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Does anyone imagine that the original will ever be seen again? Doesn't everyone realize how extremely unusual it is to remove endpapers from a printed book, under the rubric of "repairs"? Is anyone taken in by Johnstone's disingenuous remark about "arguments from authority"? Is this not classic Christianist cult behavior?

has applied an NPOV label to this article. --Wetman 10:23, 28 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I'm offended that has accused me of being disingenuous. His use of the loaded, prejudiced phrase "classic Christianist cult behavior" is also offensive. The remark in question expresses my genuine sentiment. Regardless of how or why it has not been made available for analysis, this is nonetheless a fact, and I simply communicated my opinion that arguments from authority (such as Talley's reference to the Archimandrite and librarian as "witnesses to its existence") would be a poor basis upon which to argue that the document is genuine, and that physical analysis would be the best method to determine this. Even though there are many things suggesting that the manuscript was a forgery (for example, see http://www.apologeticspress.org/modules.php?name=Read&itemid=2599&cat=7), if it really did exist and was permanently hidden or destroyed by the Archimandrite and librarian, it would be wrong. Again, if it hasn't already happened, whoever has it should make the document available for analysis, so that it can "speak" for itself. Truth is good.--Johnstone 01:07, 1 Dec 2004 (UTC)

"Offended"! Preposterous!--Wetman 04:58, 1 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Although an increasing number scholars are beginning to think that something is wrong about the discovery of Secret Mark (e.g. Bart Ehrman, Lost Christianities), please be aware Alden Bass in the linked Apologetics Press article certainly exaggerates his case when he stated that "most scholars believe it to have been a fraud." He also incorrectly listed Scott Brown for supporting the idea that Clement's letter is a forgery--Brown actually argues that, though Secret Mark was written after canonical Mark, both of them were written by the same person. --scc 03:53, 1 Dec 2004 (UTC)

According to Charles E. Hedrick and Nikolaos Olympiou, "Secret Mark: New Photographs, New Witnesses," Fourth R 13, no. 5 (September/October 2000): 3-16, the Mar Saba manuscript, which had been separated from the book for photographing, has probably been misfiled somewhere in the fairly disorganized Patriarchal library. Fortunately, the new 1970s-era photographs have been located and published. --scc 03:41, 1 Dec 2004 (UTC)

"Misfiled!" Endpapers removed from a bound printed book, and then misfiled. This embarrassing letter of Clement of Alexandria has been misfiled, we are to believe! And the letter itself is being called a fake! --Wetman 04:58, 1 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Read Charlie's article. He's been to the library and knows the librarians and their procedures, so his optimism that it may turn up again some day has some factual basis--at least a lot more than what either one of us has. --scc 21:58, 2 Dec 2004 (UTC)

mentioning the controversy

I think the fundamental issue is that at least a large minority of scholars, rightly or wrongly, do consider the Mar Saba letter to be a modern (18th or 20th century) forgery.

For the sake of neutrality this should be made clear in the main article, although it is probably legitimate to say that most scholars regrd it as a genuine letter of Clement.

This article is already rather long and would probably not be improved by a detailed discussion of the technical arguments pro and con authenticity.

All that is necessary is a clear brief statement that the authenticity of the letter is a matter of scholarly dispute.

sarban@supanet.com

It certainly should be mentioned. But the bases for doubt should be briefly and colorlessly mentioned too (by someone sympathetic), as they are also quite revealing of agendas, without any overt commentary required. --Wetman 03:08, 2 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I've written an account as neutrally as possible. I'm worried it is too long but if we're to mention the arguments for and against authenticity at all I'm not sure it can be any shorter.

sarban@supanet.com

Thanks for addition to the article. I think it is a fair summation. One question though: when you say that a majority of scholars accept the Mar Saba letter as being of Clement, do you mean Clement scholars in particular or any scholar with an interest in Secret Mark? --scc 18:21, 2 Dec 2004 (UTC) (Stephen C. Carlson)

I meant any scholar with an interest in the matter although I suspect the answer would be the same anyway. AFAIK Osborn is the only really major Clement scholar to have said in print that the work is not authentic.

sarban@supanet.com

Osborn is about as major as they get, though. Ursula Treu included it in the GSC edition "provisionally" to spur discussion, but I think Robert M. Grant is more optimistic about its authenticity. My general sense of active Clement scholars is that, if they mention it at all, they usually note that its authenticity is disputed, and few articles really depend on what is in it. Also, as you must certainly know, some good Clement scholars have taken positions in print questioning the letter's authenticity (e.g. Criddle 1995, Jakab 1999). --scc 21:51, 2 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Given that the major reason for putting the NPOV disputed label up has (IMHO IIUC etc) been largely dealt with, would it be appropriate to remove the label ??

sarban@supanet.com

20th century text discoveries

I've replaced the remark

"Starting with the Dead Sea Scrolls, textual discoveries in the later 20th century revealed a new understanding of the broadly divergent oral traditions and parallel texts..."

With this more accurate and inclusive review:

"Starting with the recovery of the Didache, the papyri from Oxyrhyncus, the Nag Hammadi library and the Dead Sea Scrolls, textual discoveries through the 20th century revealed a new understanding of the broadly divergent oral traditions and parallel texts..."

I don't imagine this will raise a fury, but you never know... --Wetman

The part you changed is now pretty good. I have little idea what "broadly divergent oral traditions and parallel texts" is supposed to mean, though. scc 09:21, 1 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Cross-ref to Assorus Tablet

I moved this from the main text, because it is dubious (see discussion on the Assorus Tablet page. scc 09:24, 1 Jan 2005 (UTC)

The Assorus Tablet supposedly discovered in November 2004 may contain further Secret Markan material.

I second that. Most dubious indeed. The story will doubtless unravel in 2005, perhaps amusingly. --Wetman 10:46, 1 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Confused Article

Questionable neutrality isn't this article's only problem. The text gets into issues of evidence for and against the Secret Gospel of Mark before it even hints at what the Secret Gospel is, somewhere around the 7th or 8th paragraph. I think some restructuring of the article is called for, with a clear and encyclopedic introductory paragraph that avoids charged expressions like "provoked a storm of recrimination, denial and abuse". It is annoying to have to read nearly half the article before figuring out precisly what the article is talking about. func(talk) 01:47, 23 Jan 2005 (UTC)

So move the controversy down to the end. --Wetman 02:38, 23 Jan 2005 (UTC)

uh

"Defenders of authenticity claim: a) Analysis of the handwriting shows that the manuscript dates from the 18th century. "

that would be evidence against authenticity, right? - Omegatron 05:47, Feb 4, 2005 (UTC)

It's not in Clement's very own handwriting. There is a distinction between authenticity of text and the authenticity of a manuscript. Manuscripts are generally much later than the origin of the text. In this case a previously unknown letter of Clement, definitely not meant for publication as an "epistle," survived to be copied into the flyleaf of a printed book, which was in the library at Mar Saba, where it was discovered. The book has now been hidden from sight, but but was photographed first, and now all is said to be "doubted", especially the honesty of the scholar who published this awkward piece of documentation. Is that unclear in the entry? Several people have been working hard to make it so.... --Wetman 06:32, 4 Feb 2005 (UTC)

It's unclear to someone who's not immersed in this stuff. It says "critics claim it is a forgery from the 18th or 20th century. defenders of authenticity say it looks like it could be from the 18th." this seems a contradiction. - Omegatron 16:16, Feb 4, 2005 (UTC)

Intentional obscurity. Note how "critics" are not identified, --Wetman 00:54, 5 Feb 2005 (UTC)