Talk:Smyrna - Definition and Overview

The Smyrna catastrophe

• The Greek version: "In the year 1922 nearly every house or building belonging to Greeks or symbolising the Greek presence in the city was razed by Turks. All the Greeks from the entire Asia Minor were forced to leave their homes and seek refuge in Greece. Many died in the attempt. Greek accounts at the time describe how many Greeks, fleeing from the burning city, tried to climb on the British ships, but the sailors prevented them by cutting their hands."
• The Turkish version (from : "In the year 1922, when Turks recaptured the city from Greeks, the withdrawing Greek forces gave the city under fire, which lasted several days. As the conflicts between Greeks and Turks living together in most parts of Greece and Turkey continued afterwards, Turkish and Greek governments reached on an agreement to exchange their Greek and Turkish minorities, many people had to leave their homes, leading to tragedies on both sides. The Greek population of Smyrna mostly disappeared after this exchange."

Can Wikipedians come up with a neutral accurate description of what happened at Smyrna in 1922, neither inflammatory nor apologist? Neither of these versions is up to Wikipedia standards. Wetman 01:01, 21 Oct 2004 (UTC)

And what's the deal with the reference to Hitler at the end?Gwimpey 22:41, Nov 24, 2004 (UTC)

(Yep. Out with it! --Wetman 21:28, 7 Feb 2005 (UTC))

The last part of the article (starting with the claims that 150,000 out of 300,000 Smyrnians were Greek in 1908 - Catholic

Encyclopedia is not exactly an objective source when it comes to information about the Ottomans, and going on with the

burning of Smyrna section out of a Greek history textbook) is an absolute disaster and has no factual accuracy whatsoever. Also,

why the hell does the article link to "foreign relations of Greece" for more information on the modern city? The only thing

missing in this article is the claim that Turks are a barbarian tribe filled with bloodlust for poor greek peasants. A factually

accurate way of describing the Smyrna events would be along the lines of Greeks invading western Anatolia after the Ottomans'

collapse following WWI and the treaties that followed, Greek soldiers doing what soldiers normally do on occupied lands,

Turkish army defeating the Greek army, both armies probably setting hostile civilian residences afire, Greek army being

sent home in ships. Just a standard disclaimer, I am a Turk, born and raised in Izmir. My grandmother from my father's

side is Greek, and her family had witnessed the "burning of smyrna" and she told me many stories about it. None of it

ever sounded like this article to me, she was rather precise in describing the Greeks as the aggressors. --67.171.71.40 10:50, 3 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Burning of Smyrna: another anonymous edit

The following new edit, which suppresses information formerly in the text, needs to be cafefully vetted by some responsible Wikipedian, preferably logged in, before it can be entered in place of the existing text. Perhaps there is some accuracy in each text. --Wetman 04:22, 7 Feb 2005 (UTC) :

At the end of the first world war the Greek Government was promised western anatolia, including Smyrna, as an award for forcing the Turkish government to sign the Treaty of Sevres through military presence in Turkey. As a result the Greek troops invaded Symrna and annexed western anatolia to Greece. However this move draw fierce opposition from Turks who were still the majority in the region but not in Smyrna itself. Soon the guerilla type resistance was united under the command of the nationalist turkish government of Kemal Atatürk in Ankara and the Greco-Turkish War of 1919-1922 erupted.

At the end of Greco-Turkish War of 1919-1922, on September 9th 1922, Turkish troops recaptured Smyrna.

However just as the Turkish soldiers arrived, a big fire erupted and most of the old city burned to the ground. Both parties blamed each other for setting up the fire. Turks claim the Greeks burned down Symrna as well as many other Turkish towns as they retreated in order to slow down turkish advance, Greeks claim that it was an act of revenge by a turkish mob to set fire on Greek quarters of the city. This issue is still heatedly debated in the history books of both nations. As a result of the events at the end of the Greco-Turkish War many Greeks and other minority members of the city left. Soon after, the remaining Greeks also were sent to Greece as a result of the population exchange clause of the Treaty of Lausanne. Today vast majority of the inhabitants of the city are ethnically turkish. In modern Turkey, thanks to its ethnically mixed heritage and being an important commercial hub, Symrna is regarded as the most westernized city in Turkey.

Responses

To Wetman: I don't understand why the obviously biased previous version is kept instead of the version below. The first paragraph just recites the facts in every history book and other pages of wikipeida, if you just care to take a look at the article on Greco-Turkish War for example. The second paragraph is as neutral as possible, briefly citing claims of both sides. Really, why on earth would you prefer the "barbarian turks killed civilized greeks" version, I have no idea. What is below is probably not perfect but it is much better than what you re-post up there. (Anon.)

Let's actually quote some of those history books, folks. And add counter-quotes from opposing historians. All I personally know is the peripheral reference in David Fromkin, A Peace to End All Peace: The Fall of the Ottoman Empire and the Creation of the Modern Middle East, so I'm not competent to judge. --Wetman 21:28, 7 Feb 2005 (UTC)

NPOV?: The last sections of this article (Burning of Smyrna) are definitely not written from a neutral point of view, and represent the nationalist Greek account of what happened. I refrain from removing the whole section, however it is unacceptable that such bias is present in an article which should only be telling the story of a 4000 year old historic city (where I was born), and not some Greek rambling on how they failed to recapture the city and hate the Turks. The mere fact that "The Modern City" links to foreign relations of Greece is absurd. I propose that either the "Burning of Smyrna" section to be rewritten by an unbiased (I am not) party, or the current section be renamed "Burning of Smyrna: The Greek Account" and the Turkish perspective added in another section. Currently this article does not represent NPOV, and is not up to Wikipedia

standards. --Mrpdaemon 21:06, 7 Feb 2005 (UTC)

...but it can become so, nevertheless. --Wetman

To Wetman 2

If u feel you are incompetent to judge why insist on having this section of the article the way it is? Even you can't claim that currently it is unbiased, and the version I provided states the claim of both sides and the facts I provide are supoported in other articles of wikipedia. And I thought wikipedia was open to anyone to edit!!! By leaving the article as it is you are not being impartial, nor are you serving the greater good of NPOV, but you are siding with one party over the other. You should either replace the current version with a more neutral one or you should move the current version to the discussion page as you did to my edit. I don't see why someone else's point of view should have precedence over mine.