Talk:Swinging - Definition

The reason I reverted....From my own considerable experience, the statement that female bisexuality is common than male bisexual within the activity of swinging is absolutely true. This is backed up by the rules of many clubs, and by anecdotes of others involved. Whether or not men involved in swinging have interest in bisexuality might be another story. But in reality, male bisexuality is unwelcome in many swinging situations. Of course, there are exceptions. ike9898 13:39, Jun 8, 2004 (UTC)

That differs from club to club and from location to location. Maybe those are the common rules in your area. They are not the common rules in my area. There are a lot of clubs that allow or even encourage male bisexual activity. Besides, there are a lot of gay and lesbian swingers-clubs also, where only homosexuality is allowed. Actually I think that pure gay swingersclubs are even more common than straight-male+bi-female clubs... Sexual preference doesn't have anything to do with swinging. I think that sentence I removed is just very unnecessary. Even if it's true (despite my own experience) I just don't think it belongs here. It's offtopic, disrespectful and there are way too many exceptions.

There is a documentary on swinging called The Lifestyle. http://imdb.com/title/tt0196699/ This is the Internet Movie Database link. Are there any objections to this movie being added to the list?

Two things:

First: I am editing the text to make it clear that male bisexuality is rare and unwelcome in virtually all swinging clubs. This is a fact and disguising this salient point would be to deliberately mislead readers. Gay and lesbian swinging clubs are not swingers clubs, they are gay and lesbian clubs. I do not believe there are many swingers clubs - properly defined - that tolerate or encourage male bisexuality and I would want to know which of the 400 NASCA members had this policy before believing the opposite. There is nothing disrespectful about a fact nor is there anything disrespectful about people choosing to define their sexuality in ways that exclude being present during male gay sex. After all, not many lesbian and gay clubs welcome or encourage heterosexual sex on the premises, nor should they have to.

Second: A large amount of copy has been inserted on the topic of non-condom use and swingers with venereal diseases. This appears to be an attempt to associate swinging with unsafe sex, a connection which has never been borne out scientifically in any country that has swingers clubs. I am going to edit this out. I would want to know which swingers clubs do not have rules about condom use before accepting it. Cymro61

I've attempted to split the text into sections, have added text to the subgroups: bisexuality and singles, have also added text to the organisation section To many couples, the lifestyle and the clubs can be at least as much a social venue as a sexual one. Many off-premise clubs follow a bar or nightclub format, sometimes renting an entire existing bar for scheduled events. This often relegates these activities to suburbia, where bars in large industrial parks which attract a mainstream clientele during weekdays would otherwise sit empty or closed on weekends when offices shut down.

I haven't removed text although some appears in different sequence. Perhaps someone would care to check the new text for NPOV? --66.102.74.5 05:07, 26 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Whoever obsesses about male homosexuality, its supposed acceptance in the swinging context and the 'homophobia' of not wanting to be present when men have gay sex is going to find that I have a very strong muscle in my delete finger. We swingers will define our community as we wish, thank you, and not have it defined for us by overbearing and aggressive people of other sexualities whose committment to propaganda far outstrips their committment to the truth. Cymro61

Just to back you up.... This is not a question of the article being pro- or anti- gay. The article just needs to be factual. In my experience, it is a fact that at many swing clubs, male homosexual activity is not welcomed. Maybe that will change, who knows. But Wikipedia should just be about objective facts. ike9898 22:37, Nov 22, 2004 (UTC)

I've flagged the "subgroups" section as disputed; I do not think that deleting whatever facts happen to not support one's pet cause(s) is leading us any closer to a neutral or accurate article. If there are two sides to an issue, fine, present both sides, but an article with everything one person or group doesn't like being repeatedly removed is neither complete nor objective. --carlb 19:37, 23 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Disputed it certainly is. However, it is not facts that are being deleted and it is the (anonymous) person who insists on inserting and reinserting factually inaccurate copy littered with subjective judgements who is pursuing a pet cause.

Let us look in detail at the disputed section:

Para 1.

"Female bisexuality is extremely common while male bisexuality is less common and frowned upon in many clubs, due to a modern form of homophobia."

Analysis: First, defining one's sexuality to exclude male gay sex or your presence during it is not homophobic. (Clearly not, otherwise logically male gay sex would be compulsory, wouldn't it?).

Second, ascribing homophobic motives to people's sexuality is subjective. Where are the studies, where is the proof?

Third, the fact is that female bisexuality is almost universal in swinging (90% plus of female swingers) whereas male bisexuality is almost entirely absent. There are endless research sources that back this up. Where are the studies that contradict it?

Para 2.

"Transgendered persons are relatively uncommon because such people make up a small percentage of the general population. Dozens of swing clubs cater especially to gay or lesbian couples, despite resistance by homophobic elements within the broader swinging community."

Analysis: In the first place setting the swinging scene in the context of gay/lesbian and transgendered people is inappropriate, given these are other sexualities. Articles on gays, lesbians and transgendered people are not set in the context of swingers. Nor should they be. If this was a gay/lesbian/transgendered encyclopaedia and therefore looking at the world from any of these perspectives it would be legitimate. But it is not.

Secondly, "dozens of swing clubs cater especially to gay and lesbian couples". This is untrue at several levels. Firstly I do not believe there are any clubs exclusively for gay and lesbian couples, have never heard of any and request proof. Second, if they do exist they are gay/lesbian clubs not swingers clubs. Third, some swing clubs become gay clubs on off-nights for economic reasons but that does not mean there is no distinction between gay activity and swinging activity. Palpably there is. You can have different sports in the same stadium on different days.

Para 3.

"Even where bisexuals are included, the motivations involved are often somewhat incompatible with those of other bi-positive groups. The polyamorous community differentiates itself from the swinger lifestyle by putting a greater emphasis on long-term relationships and sites such as [3] (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bi-polyamory-ottawa/) will indicate that the "poly group is NOT a contact organization for swingers".

Analysis: First, the ascriptions of motives to swingers' involvements with bisexuals is subjective and also irrelevant. The motive is a sexual one because swinging is a sexuality. No further justification is necessary.

Second, if the polyamorous community defines itself as not for swingers, according to the quote given, then it is an irrelevant intrusion in an article about swingers. Lumberjacks do not define themselves as swingers either. Does this article have to contain a list of every group that are not swingers? A line contrasting swinging with polyamory with a link to the polyamory entry would be appropriate.

Para 4.

"The organised gay community also attempts to be tolerant of bisexuality to some degree, but a heterosexual male trying to fulfill a fantasy of having two women would be out-of-place in the lesbian community. Some bisexual groups within the organised gay/lesbian community, such as [4] (http://www.pinktriangle.org/pts_site/Eng/obwdg.html), therefore limit their membership to women only."

Analysis: What happens in the gay and lesbian communities is irrelevant in an entry on swinging. In an entry on bisexuality and/or the gay and lesbian communities it would be appropriate.

To the person who posts all this stuff again and again I say please do us all the courtesy of identifying yourself and justifying your actions. If you don't do these things I suggest you should not be taken seriously. The entry in this encyclopaedia about swinging should be factual and not slanted by the perspective of political movements related to other sexualities. Would it be appropiate for evangelical Christians to insist that entries on homosexuality were written from their perspective? Cymro61.

What happens in the poly or lesbian communities is relevant if swingers are turning up there looking for "female hot bi babes"; the analogy to lumberjacks or some other group is in that sense completely broken. There's nothing specifically prohibiting lumberjacks from becoming swingers (unless they're in some other undesirable category, such as single males) but at the same time swingers aren't routinely visiting the lumberjack community as if it were a singles bar. As for the link between Christians and homosexuality? There is an *entire* article on that one Christian_views_of_homosexuality which is referenced in various places.

--66.102.74.217 18:40, 24 Nov 2004 (UTC)

(a) are you the person inserting all this non-factual stuff? (b) Where exactly do swinging couples turn up looking for "hot bi babes"? Are you suggesting that these tangential references to other sexual communities should be placed in the entry on swinging as some sort of revenge for behaviour by some swingers that you personally disapprove? (c) As regards Christian views of Homosexuality, I think that's a fine example. May I suggest you write an entry called Poly & Lesbian views of Swinging and place your opinions there, instead of fouling up a perfectly factual entry? Some of us are trying to get some scholarship done here. Cymro61.

If you're going to dispute the facts in the section on bisexuality, please add any info that you perceive as missing and cite sources. Repeated deletion of basically an entire section of an article solely because it addresses issues with which you feel uncomfortable is not scholarship but vandalism. Why not contribute some text somewhere within Wikipedia instead of continually deleting it? --carlb 16:42, 14 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I am going to change the section on bisexuality yet again, to try and move a number of the issues raised here to the front page. Futher from my own experience, I have never been to a swingers club that wasn't accepting of bisexual men. Though they to tend to be a significant minority. rubingr