how to describe the last plague ?
I don't think "murder" is the appropriate English word.
"murder" is defined as
"The unlawful killing of one human by another, especially ..."
--
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=murder
Since there is no human causing the deaths of the last plague,
it was not murder.
Is there a more appropriate English word ? PleaseDiscuss. - (unsigned)
Exodus says the Lord said he would smite the first-born: perhaps "killing" is the word you're looking for? -- Nunh-huh
Hebrew transliteration
Okay, for the record, I'm not a fluent Hebrew speaker, but I can read the script well enough to know that:
doesn't say Eser Ha-Makot, more like "Eser Makot Matzrayim".
Anyone know Hebrew enough to clarify this inconsistancy?
Eric 21:44, 17 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Firstly, this article needs to make clear this is a piece of Christian doctrine and attribute clearly. However, I know that Christian churches differ widely on their interpretation of the Bible, so if there is divergence in interpretation that needs also to be made clear.
Secondly, as a stylistic point, I don't think using the convention in Christian writing of capitalizing "his" when referring to the Christian deity is appropriate for Wikipedia. --Robert Merkel 04:24, 8 Jun 2004 (UTC)
Capitalizing "His" is POV. Also, this should be at Ten plagues of Egypt or something like that. Definitely not "The", definitely not upper case, definitely not without some idea of where the plagues were. RickK 06:17, Jun 8, 2004 (UTC)
- I think that The Ten Plagues become a proper noun in Bible and in Western Society. Rantaro 06:50, 8 Jun 2004 (UTC)
The table which seeks to correlate each plague with an affront to an Egyption god is someone's clever work rather than a standard reading of the of the text. We need to find the name of the person who advanced this theory and include it.
- I thank you to your idea. But please write in talk page.Rantaro 09:12, 9 Jun 2004 (UTC)
- Rantaro, you're correct that this should have been placed on the talk page, but could you please respond to the substantive point here. How much of this is a consensus interpretation of the Bible, and if bits aren't (such as the table), whose ideas are they? The neutral point of view requires that opinions must be attributed to the person or group of people who advocate it. --Robert Merkel 13:00, 9 Jun 2004 (UTC)
- I don't know what you mean. You mean this isn't consensus? Of course, this idea is mine.Rantaro 14:10, 9 Jun 2004 (UTC)
- If it's only your idea, it can hardly be consensus. One person can't have a consensus. I am reasonably certain that various Bible commentators have tried to draw a correlation between the plagues and the Egyptian gods, but they don't always agree which gods and sometimes must strain to make the correlation. I'll move the table here, then, and replace it with a simple list which makes no unattributed speculation. When we can find the name of those who have postulated the correlations we should return them to the article as their speculation or commentary rather than as fact...if as a table, one using simplified wikisyntax rather than html, as html is harder to edit. - Nunh-huh 21:29, 9 Jun 2004 (UTC)
| Plagues | Description |
|---|
| 1 | Nile and other waters turned to blood. Nile-god Hapi disgraced |
| 2 | Frogs. Frog-goddess Heqt powerless to prevent it |
| 3 | Dust turned to gnats. Thoth, lord of magic, could not help the Egyptian magicians |
| 4 | Gadflies on all Egypt except Goshen where Israel dwelt. No god was able to prevent it-not even Ptah, creator of the universe, or Thoth, lord of magic |
| 5 | Pestilence on livestock. Neither sacred cow-goddess Hathor nor Apis the bull could prevent this plague |
| 6 | Boils. Healer deities Thoth, Isis, and Ptah unable to help |
| 7 | Thunder and hail. Exposed the impotence of Reshpu, controller of lightning, and Thoth, god of rain and
thunder |
| 8 | Locusts. This was a blow to the fertility-god Min, protector of crops |
| 9 | Three days of darkness. Ra, the preeminent sun-god, and Horus, a solar god, disgraced |
| 10 | Death of the firstborn including Pharaoh's, who was considered to be a god incarnate. Ra (Amon-Ra), sun-god and sometimes represented as a ram, was unable to impede it |
I saw these ideas represented by a certain Rabbi Jeff (Yochanan) Kirschblum: the gods "disproved" by each plague were:
- 1. Osiris, 2. Nut/Sobek, 3. Ra, 4. Set, 5. Isis, 6. Nephythys, 7. Tefnut, 8. Geb, 9. Shu, 10. Pharaoh (who was served as a god) URL (http://www.torah.org/learning/outsidethebox/5764/vaera.html).
The fact that he arrives at a completely different list shouldn't surprise us - this is more an exercise of the mind, as the Jewish sources don't mention the names of the Egyptian gods. JFW | T@lk 10:09, 13 Jun 2004 (UTC)
"were the plagues a miracle or natural disasters" - this section seems to have been added to make any documentarian/scholarly view of the bible look ridiculous. scientists are portrayed as desperately scrambling to come up with explanations, with comically far-fetched results. in reality, most serious historians simply do not see any historical evidence for the plagues having happened at all.
the whole section is so biased that just rewording it is probably not enough.
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