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Excellent article, makes everything very clear on what can be done and how.
That said, there's a non-encyclopedic, converstational tone; and a POV that, though many Wikipedians would agree with, is not NPOV. Don't know if I have time to work on it, so I've made this note. Radagast 16:05, May 8, 2004 (UTC)
- Yes, it is a little too alarmist. Though I don't exactly like the idea of TC, but the article does seem somewhat, well, paranoid. - Pingveno 04:57, 11 Jul 2004 (UTC)
- The 1984 reference has got to go. Other than that, though, the list of possible advantages and problems looks pretty much accurate to me. The POV problem can be pretty much addressed by equalizing the relative length of the pros and cons and adding softening words like "it is possible", etc. --Shibboleth 00:35, 31 Aug 2004 (UTC)
- I read the whole article and could read barely any POV into it. Yes, the 1984 reference is there, but without the reference, would the article benefit? I doubt it. Seeing references to books, specifically books which are quite related (Such as relating Animal Farm to Communism), is not necessarily a bad thing, and it is up to the user to generate their own view of the data presented. I didn't even know this was up for NPOV dispute until I noticed the category, which is to say that if I had not noticed, I would not have thought there was any POV in said article. --207.181.42.20 21:37, 27 Sep 2004 (UTC)
- I strongly disagree. The first part of the article is relatively neutral but the section previously titled "Problems" was extremely slanted in my opinion. I changed the heading to "Drawbacks" and rephrased a few things to soften the rhetoric. "...and other evil things" seemed a bit over the top to me. I think a few more edits may be in order, but what I saw to be the worst of it, I've taken care of; I encourage others to change what bothers them. Solemnavalanche 20:05, 14 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I believe this article is Aaron Swartz's authorized abridgement of my article "Trusted Computing: Promise and Risk". My article was intended to be advocacy and not NPOV, and was not meant to be as technical as perhaps an encyclopedia entry should be. I agree that it's not appropriate for the full text of Wikipedia's entry on TC. The conversation tone probably comes from Aaron's abridgment, which was meant to be particularly accessible to the general public. - Seth Schoen (not yet a registered Wikipedia user)
- Ah, I see you're an expert and have your own Wikipedia article :-). That would explain the article's quality. I think the level of technicality (though it could probably use a bit more) is actually pretty good for a general article on the topic rather than a specific implementation of it. --Shibboleth 00:44, 31 Aug 2004 (UTC)
Had I not been the victim of a trojan and numerous hacker scannings at ports 3011 and 3012 of my computer (trusted web client and trusted web ports), I might agree with the "paranoid" prognosis. However, now that someone has had their way with my computer, my account numbers, my documents and pictures, my web surfing histories, and my music and audio files (some which I recorded of lectures and my own music and dialouges), I think that the 1984 references are wholly APPROPRIATE. Also, after cleaning all of the marketing advertising spyware and malware that did similar things, I noted with much dismay that a microphone program and keylogger were running, recording not only keystrokes on my keyboard into little files which were sent back into cyberspace, but actual audio files from the microphone.
It is not merely a potential event that webcams and microphones could be manipulated to violate privacy- it is in fact happening already on some level. I personally would rather have the ability to alter and choose what is on my computer and how it is running.
I'm not a computer geek, but I am very concerned with privacy after what happened to us.
-Maxim
This article is far less alarmist than some of the stuff i've read on other websites, and pretty unbiased. Unbiased doesnt mean making a bad thing look somewhat good.
The 1984 reference is not only needed, it is most relevant. To say things such as: "The 1984 reference has got to go." Simply outs you as an enemy of the truth. You might as well be saying "The truth must be removed from this article". However much you were paid to say this will never be able to compensate you for taking a stance against humanity as a whole.
-Morriscat
Personally, I am very much against the TCPA, and yet my edit added some balance to the "Owner Override" section. Owner Override is an idiotic idea, because it will take all of the potential benefits (few as though there may be) and destroy them. TC should either be implemented fully or not implemented at all.
-AyAn4m1
- I'm guessing you added the last paragraph. I agree it gives the article balance, but it seems tacked-on. In an article full of examples, it gives only a vague description of what's wrong with overrides.
- As for the 1984 reference, while it's not technically wrong, it sounds alarmist to me; my personal perception is that comparing something to 1984 immediately brings the discussion down, much like mentioning Nazis or Hitler on Usenet has become.
- You don't need the reference to realize that the scenario described is a Very Bad Thing.
- -ntg
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I agree that the reference does not seem disinterested. There is little to no value added by paralleling TC to 1984, the reader should be encouraged to come up with their own opinion based on facts presented in a manner as unbiased as possible. The problem with using 1984 as a parallel, is that the literary community generally accepts that 1984 is a dangerous, dystopic society -- this is insidiously suggesting a negative conclusion to the reader. I do not understand why the reference has to be there.
As for the actual hypothetical, it seems rather extreme. From the paragraph in question, "rewriting history" certainly isn't the first thing that came to mind when I read it. I thought of annoyances, and corporate exploitation of the consumer. However, using the phrase "rewriting history" implies changes on a massive scale, usually with a political goal, that will profoundly affect society. This is not the type of hypothetical that should be used to make this point. The paragraph is about a company being able to erase their tracks, and modify their own content retroactively -- it should not be made into a hypothetical Orwellian prophecy. Advocates against trusted computing should realize that using extreme hypotheticals just hurts the credibility of the article -- the reader may lose faith in what is being said and write off what are legitimate drawbacks as "alarmist" or "cooky conspiracy theory". In order to more effectively make that paragraph's point, a less extreme example should be used.
Even the metallica hypothetical seems unfair. If someone makes up a scenario that is relatively far fetched (limiting song playing by the time of day doesn't seem like the first thing the music industry might try to do), s/he should also make up a band -- unless it is factual. I suggest replacing "Metallica" with "a band" or "a group", so as not to pick on them in particular.
- -Alroussassa
Minor note: The heading "Users can override TC" confusingly implies that such an ability currently exists, changed to "Proposed owner override for TC".
Main note: The final paragraph in that section was not NPOV. It claims to speak for the entire "technical community", then denies the existance of the benefits a TC system with Owner Override would provide. I admit I'm fairly new here, and maybe I'm biased (I think TC with Owner Overide would be fantastic and wish I could buy one right now), but I tried my best to neutrally explain exactly what would be preserved and what would be lost with Owner Override. Any cleanups by someone more experienced are invited.
"internet commerce"
The introduction only talks about internet commerce which, whether you're for or against TC gives the incorrect impression that this has mostly to do with things like online banking and web stores and securely doing business with them. Preventing copyright infringement, security (viruses, trojans, hackers), interestingly even ensuring privacy seem to be among the main promises given by the technology's proponents.
The rest of the article does discuss these features, but the introduction offers a rather narrow view.
- The introduction of this article is a poor attempt at NPOV which turned out redundant and repetitive. If somebody competent doesn't step up and rewrite it, I'll do it myself. --Sn0wflake 14:56, 8 Feb 2005 (UTC)
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