Talk:War on terrorism - Definition and Overview

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Hypocrisy?

Doesn't Graft have a point in the September 11th discussion page about the CIA being involved in acts of terrorism?

QUOTE:

Slim, I noticed you described what constitutes a terrorist attack. Well, according to you, most military action by the US army is terrorist in nature. If we go by what you say (which I agree with), then we have to label most US military action accordingly.

You can't have your cake and eat it - either killing civilians for the sake of killing civilians is terrorism or it isn't. (Posted by 82.35.107.44)

Hi Anon, I'm not sure where I've described what constitutes a terrorist attack. Can you be more specific? Slim 03:25, Jan 6, 2005 (UTC)

Do you mean this one: "United Nations Office on Drugs and Crime. [1] (http://www.unodc.org/unodc/terrorism_definitions.html) "Academic Consensus Definition":

"Terrorism is an anxiety-inspiring method of repeated violent action, employed by (semi-) clandestine individual, group or state actors, for idiosyncratic, criminal or political reasons, whereby - in contrast to assassination - the direct targets of violence are not the main targets. The immediate human victims of violence are generally chosen randomly (targets of opportunity) or selectively (representative or symbolic targets) from a target population, and serve as message generators. Threat- and violence-based communication processes between terrorist (organization), (imperilled) victims, and main targets are used to manipulate the main target (audience(s)), turning it into a target of terror, a target of demands, or a target of attention, depending on whether intimidation, coercion, or propaganda is primarily sought" (Schmid, 1988). The U.S. government isn't a clandestine or semi-clandestine individual, group or state actor; and it doesn't choose as direct targets of violence people who are not its main targets. Slim 03:25, Jan 6, 2005 (UTC)

Not quite true - the CIA is a clandestine state actor, and has been engaged in actions targetting people who are not its main targets, e.g. Nicaraguan peasants, et alia. Graft 05:42, 6 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Yes, I see what you mean, Graft. Also, as SNIyer1 has re-inserted the "effects on children" section, I've edited it to include the links, which were not added back in. Slim 17:15, Jan 6, 2005 (UTC)

END QUOTE

If so, shouldn't it be addressed in the opposition section of the main War on Terror page?

Well, if there are no complaints, I'm going ahead and changing it.

From The First Sentence This Entry is Biased

(Whoever wrote this should read up on logic a bit. It centers around the fallacy that since no evidence proves it -not- to be true, it can and must be true. This is an example of a logical circular argument at its finest. "Since you cannot prove I am lying, I must be telling the truth.")

What the 9/11 Commission states was that there was no "operational" connection between Saddam and Al Qaeda, particularly in reference to the 9/11 attacks. This means nothing because there are plenty of other ways to have connections: logistical, personnel, financing, equipment, etc. The United States has connections to almost every intelligence service on the planet but only maintains operationals connections with two or three.

The 9/11 Commission also claims to have no idea where Al Qaeda gets it's funding, so a militant, America-hating, terrorist-supporting Arab dictator with billions in petrol profits should not be ruled out.

Let us also remember that the Commission only accepted testimony that was sourced, "archival" or "historical" and essentially in the sphere of public information. Anecdotal reporting, unsourced material, circumstantial evidence or theory was not accepted into the record.

And can we forget that in the 1998 indictment against Al Qaeda, the Clinton Administration stated that AQ and Saddam collaborated on "weapons systems"?

Obviously the commission was more explicit than you imply. Here's some quotes:

Bin Ladin was also willing to explore possibilities for cooperation with Iraq, even though Iraq's dictator, Saddam Hussein, had never had an Islamist agenda-save for his opportunistic pose as a defender of the faithful against "Crusaders" during the Gulf War of 1991. Moreover, Bin Ladin had in fact been sponsoring anti-Saddam Islamists in Iraqi Kurdistan, and sought to attract them into his Islamic army.53

To protect his own ties with Iraq, Turabi reportedly brokered an agreement that Bin Ladin would stop supporting activities against Saddam. Bin Ladin apparently honored this pledge, at least for a time, although he continued to aid a group of Islamist extremists operating in part of Iraq (Kurdistan) outside of Baghdad's control. In the late 1990s, these extremist groups suffered major defeats by Kurdish forces. In 2001, with Bin Ladin's help they re-formed into an organization called Ansar al Islam. There are indications that by then the Iraqi regime tolerated and may even have helped Ansar al Islam against the common Kurdish enemy.54

With the Sudanese regime acting as intermediary, Bin Ladin himself met with a senior Iraqi intelligence officer in Khartoum in late 1994 or early 1995. Bin Ladin is said to have asked for space to establish training camps, as well as assistance in procuring weapons, but there is no evidence that Iraq responded to this request.55 As described below, the ensuing years saw additional efforts to establish connections.

a little later:

There is also evidence that around this time Bin Ladin sent out a number of feelers to the Iraqi regime, offering some cooperation. None are reported to have received a significant response. According to one report, Saddam Hussein's efforts at this time to rebuild relations with the Saudis and other Middle Eastern regimes led him to stay clear of Bin Ladin.74

In mid-1998, the situation reversed; it was Iraq that reportedly took the initiative. In March 1998, after Bin Ladin's public fatwa against the United States, two al Qaeda members reportedly went to Iraq to meet with Iraqi intelligence. In July, an Iraqi delegation traveled to Afghanistan to meet first with the Taliban and then with Bin Ladin. Sources reported that one, or perhaps both, of these meetings was apparently arranged through Bin Ladin's Egyptian deputy, Zawahiri, who had ties of his own to the Iraqis. In 1998, Iraq was under intensifying U.S. pressure, which culminated in a series of large air attacks in December.75

Similar meetings between Iraqi officials and Bin Ladin or his aides may have occurred in 1999 during a period of some reported strains with the Taliban. According to the reporting, Iraqi officials offered Bin Ladin a safe haven in Iraq. Bin Ladin declined, apparently judging that his circumstances in Afghanistan remained more favorable than the Iraqi alternative. The reports describe friendly contacts and indicate some common themes in both sides' hatred of the United States. But to date we have seen no evidence that these or the earlier contacts ever developed into a collaborative operational relationship. Nor have we seen evidence indicating that Iraq cooperated with al Qaeda in developing or carrying out any attacks against the United States.76

And footnote 76:

76. CIA analytic report,"Ansar al-Islam:Al Qa'ida's Ally in Northeastern Iraq," CTC 2003-40011CX, Feb. 1, 2003. See also DIA analytic report,"Special Analysis: Iraq's Inconclusive Ties to Al-Qaida," July 31, 2002; CIA analytic report,"Old School Ties," Mar. 10, 2003.We have seen other intelligence reports at the CIA about 1999 con-tacts.They are consistent with the conclusions we provide in the text, and their reliability is uncertain. Although there have been suggestions of contacts between Iraq and al Qaeda regarding chemical weapons and explosives training, the most detailed information alleging such ties came from an al Qaeda operative who recanted much of his original information. Intelligence report, interrogation of al Qaeda operative, Feb. 14, 2004.Two senior Bin Ladin associates have adamantly denied that any such ties existed between al Qaeda and Iraq. Intelligence reports, interrogations of KSM and Zubaydah, 2003 (cited in CIA letter, response to Douglas Feith memorandum,"Requested Modifications to 'Summary of Body of Intelligence Reporting on Iraq-al Qaida Contacts (1990-2003),'" Dec. 10, 2003, p. 5).

All of that is pretty clear on the exact nature of the relationship. I.e., it didn't amount to much. Some intitial feelers, but nothing came out of it. So whither the problem? Graft 18:33, 13 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Clarity in Action

removed rant against "liberals"

This article is weak

Why is this article so slanted to the left? After reading it I'm left with the impression that the war on terror is a bad thing. I'd rather just get the facts without all the links to BBC, UN, and NBC. At least add something to balance your political views (i.e. Fox News, drudgereport.com, Etc.)

Maybe because it IS a bad thing? If there's any valid points for the "right", you're free to add them.

Disambiguation?

While we're at cleaning up this article... What do you think of creating a disambiguation page? IMHO this article is a case of primary topic disambiguation. I hear the phrase war on terror(ism) almost exclusively in the context of US-led military activities following Sept. 11. Actually I have never used this phrase in any other context. OK, there are historical, mostly regional, precedents, but few would call them war on terrorism. So when I look up war on terror(ism) in Wikipedia I expect to find something about the global war The US and selected friends against "terrorists" all over the world with keywords Sept 11, AUMF, Afghanistan, Feb 15, Iraq, axis of evil, Saudi-Arabia, you name it. On the other hand I'd also expect to find references to other uses of the phrase. If Bush's war on terror somehow builds on Reagan's war on terror, I expect to find the link explained in the article. If both presidents used the same phrase more or less independently, a link on War on Terrorism (disambiguation) would be fine. Same with the British in Palestine or Russians in Chechnya. Actually I'd expect links to some of these conflicts in the see also: section at the end of the article or the disambiguation page. Note that the phrase war on terrorism for non-military activities is rarely used outside the US. Even organizations like NATO and UN don't use the phrase war on terrorism for their actions to reduce terrorism in the world. So I'd say the article war on terrorism should refer to US-led military acitivities as authorized in the AUMF (9/18/2001). I cannot think of any other use of the phrase war on terrorism that matches the impact of this global war that has been going on for 2 1/2 years -- with no end in sight. --145.254.51.34 09:28, 20 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Page protection

The page has just been protected. Hopefully the anon will start discussing his/her changes on the talk page now. 172 04:45, 24 Jul 2004 (UTC)

War on semantics (terror vs terrorism)

I've noticed a slight trend towards semantic pickiness regarding the phrase "war on terror." Michael Moore has said "You can't declare war on a noun." [1] (http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/07/05/fahrenheit.tm/) August 10 on the Daily Show, NY Times columnist Maureen Dowd mentioned a conservative colleague who thought the phrase was okay, despite it being a "war on a tactic" as she put it. The current version of this article says that the phrase "war on terror" is semantically illogical.

Michael Moore is a twat, a noun is about the only thing you can declare war on.PRB 10:55, 15 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Michael Moore is a populist. If he'd said "You can't declare war on an emotional state" people wouldn't remember what he'd said, though that's what he meant.

Actually, you can declare war on anything. On fudge sundae. On poor grammar. Or even on drugs. You can have a war of words. The word "war" has many senses; 1. armed conflict between parties 2. specific conflicts of that kind 3. the technique 4. a conflict of any kind (e.g. a war of words, the war against crime) 5. as a modifier (e.g. war horse) and 6. to pursue such a conflict.

Sense 4. allows one to declare war on anything.

However, there are international conventions that specifically state what constitutes war, and I don't think it includes that kind. It would be useful to refer to these in the article. Mr. Jones 16:00, 17 Dec 2004 (UTC)

In each of your examples, war has been declared on a noun or noun phrase, you can't declare a "war on healthily" (adv) or a "war on nice" (adj), or a "war on move" (v). So, I stand by my original statement, modified for pedants, "A Noun Phrase is the only thing you can declare war on". An appropriately inflected noun on its own can constitute a noun phrase. I should add that you can declare war on "healthily"|"nice"|"move" where it is those words, and not the referents of those words that one wishes to fight (e.g. "I don't want to see the word 'nice' in any of your essays, consider this a war on 'nice'"). That is because a word is a noun.PRB 10:47, 20 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Now, I don't see how it's any less valid to talk of a war on a tactic (or noun - would Moore rather we had war on verbs?) than of a war on "terrorism," which, as per the definitions in the terrorism article, can be a "tactic of violence" or a "pejorative characterisation of an enemy's attacks." So, does it make more or less sense to talk of "war on a perjorative characterisation" than "war on an intense state of fear"? Would it be okay to have war on any other "ism"s, for instance war on racism, Marxism, or feminism? I'm fairly sure we're stuck with both "war on terrorism" and "war on terror;" unless someone can provide a good reason why the latter is semantically illogical, I would be in favor of treating both phrases as equally valid in this article. That Moore and others criticize the latter usage to me is a variety of ad-hominem attack on the perceived semantic understanding of their opponents. -- Wapcaplet 20:57, 11 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Are you serious? A war is something where you confront a concrete ennemy which you can defeat. Can you shoot terrorism? Can you bomb terrorism? Can you take terrorism as a POW? Does terrorism scream when wounded or ask for mercy when you're about to finish it off? The "War on Terror" is the most absurd term that the Bush administration has come up with, closely followed by the "Axis of Evil", chosen precisely because it is never-ending and can be used to justify any unjustifiable military intervention. It is there to hide the fact that when you drop bombs on Afghanistan or Iraq, you are actually killing real people with families and all that stuff that makes us human. The concept of a war on terror is more grotesque than Don Quixote attacking his windmills. Terrorism is a tactic that's as old as humanity. As a tactic it will always be a possible means to an end, and its use can only be reduced by solving conflicts between those who might use terrorism to achieve their aims and by building a legalframework that makes its use more costly to those who use it. You can't wage war on it. The "War on Terror" is nothing but a propaganda term, the result of an Orwellian attempt to deform our language. - pir 23:37, 11 Aug 2004 (UTC)

I agree; whether it is rendered as "war on terror" or "war on terrorism", it serves to disguise the reality of events. I think you may have missed the point of my post, which maybe I didn't make clear enough: that the phrase "war on terror" is just as valid, in a semantic sense, as the phrase "war on terrorism." Whether the former is a deviously crafted propaganda term or not has no bearing on its semantic validity. -- Wapcaplet 23:56, 11 Aug 2004 (UTC)

OK, I thought I didn't really understand what you were getting at. - pir 08:16, 12 Aug 2004 (UTC)

The expression "War on Terrorism" is a piece of rhetoric, not a piece of science. It does not refer to any objective set of actions or positions, but rather is a rubric under which a particular political power makes claims about its actions. It is not only subjective in it uses; it is inherently subjective. That is the whole point of making rhetorical terms: to lay out a particular policy position (or, in Wikipedia terms, POV) and advocate for it.

I would contend that there are nonsubjective elements: as a war, certain protections like habeas corpus are suspended. This happened in the (also fraudulent/dissembling) "war on drugs" as declared by Bush Pere, and is now completely out of control. 142.177.169.126 14:28, 1 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Arguing over whether or not a particular action "is" part of "the War on Terrorism" makes about as much sense as arguing over whether a particular religious group "is" Christian. All you have to go on are the subjective definitions used by the group itself and by its adversaries. There simply is not any objective answer available to resolve the dispute.

That said, Wikipedia can still describe the dispute: how the term is used; who uses it; which actions the users of the term "War on Terrorism" do label by this term; how other people criticize these uses; and so forth. This can be done without pretending that the term refers to anything objective. --FOo 01:03, 12 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Good points, but that also is unrelated to the topic of my post. Let me be absolutely clear. There are two phrases that the news media, politicians, etc. use to describe the nebulous ongoing efforts to stifle the activity of terrorism. Those two phrases are:

1. "The War on Terror"
2. "The War on Terrorism"

Some, as I have mentioned, prefer to use (2), citing reasons of grammatical correctness of some kind. This very article makes a statement that (1) is "semantically illogical" (first paragraph under "Recent Summary"). My position is that (1) is just as semantically logical as (2), and thus should be treated as such in the article. That is all. -- Wapcaplet 02:39, 12 Aug 2004 (UTC)

I think that the "terror" phrase is a bit more nebulous than "terrorism", because terror refers also to a human emotion. Also, to characterise the "War on Terror(ism)" as rhetorical is spot on and neutral, much better than "political" (as is used in the introduction atm.).pir 08:16, 12 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Reification

I happened upon the wiki article Reification, also called hypostatisation, which says: "Fallacious arguments based on reification may be committed when manipulations that are only possible on concrete things are said to be performable on an abstract concept." I think that may apply to "war on terror" or even a "war on terrorism?" or am I reaching here? --Ben 06:42, 10 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Quotes from August 2004

This isn't an article I want to get too involved in, but somebody may want to build this story into the article in some form. --[[User:Bodnotbod|bodnotbod » .....TALKQuietly)]] 14:55, Aug 31, 2004 (UTC)

President admits war on terror cannot be won (http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,3604,1293965,00.html) - The Guardian - August 31 - 2004

Regardless of whether you are on the right or the left, the phrase is technically an oxymoron because terror is an essential part of war. Mir 08:55, 2 Feb 2005 (UTC)